Child-like faith in reason

[Augustus]

That we should all be like Gray - since he is so perfect?

Perfect? Where do you get that from?

He says the opposite, poking fun at those who believe they are highly rational, and if only other people could be more like them then the world's problems would be solved.

"We'd all be better off if we saw ourselves as we are - intermittently and only ever partly-rational creatures, who never really grow up."

 

[Kooky]

For 'vapid nonsense', you are doing a grand job of supporting his argument.

You keep demonstrating you don't understand his argument by making such silly misrepresentations. But, even if you don't understand, by jove, you know he's definitely wrong. And that's for sure. Reason dictates it...

Of course, the reason people disagree with you has to be that they are intellectually deficient. It is impossible that somebody could have read and understood the same text as you did, and come to a completely different opinion.

 

[Kooky]

He says the opposite, poking fun at those who believe they are highly rational, and if only other people could be more like them then the world's problems would be solved.

And would you characterize that position as rational and reasoned?

 

[danieldemol]

"We'd all be better off if we saw ourselves as we are - intermittently and only ever partly-rational creatures, who never really grow up."

I see myself as a partially rational creature, however there is optimism in my mind that science and technology may improve to the point where we can correct serious defects in rationality in individuals that can be safely isolated.

I had a serious defect in rationality (pscizophrenia) and it was corrected through medication, so I see no reason to assume that other rationality defects caused by faulty hard-wiring or chemical imbalance will never be correctable in the future.

So science, reason, technology etc may yet manage to save the human race provided they can do it in time.

I remain optimistic.
In my opinion.

 

[Revoltingest]

Good and evil are not subjective.

From what source do we have objective absolutely
true morality?

They are objective energies which exist regardless of human actions. Regardless of humans.

Define "energies"?

There are very dangerous post-modern philosophies like the School of Frankfurt that tried to erase the difference between evil and good.
Successfully, in the United States.

I'm not familiar with that school of thought.
But are you perhaps describing the recognition
of subjectivity & their not being absolutely true?

But in Europe there is still a sparkle of hope.
There is still that rational reasoning that make people fight for what makes life worth living.

What makes life worth living to Putin & others who
believe in military conquest & oppression isn't what
I value. Yet he & I would each argue that we're right.

 

[Augustus]

Of course, the reason people disagree with you has to be that they are intellectually deficient. It is impossible that somebody could have read and understood the same text as you did, and come to a completely different opinion.

The problem is your opinions don't seem to have anything to do with what he actually says.

How do you think such a problem should be viewed, rationally speaking?

Why do you ask for a rational argument when you do not believe in rational reasoning?

For example this reply makes absolutely no sense in the context of the article

And would you characterize that position as rational and reasoned?

Yes it is rational to accept we are all frequently irrational and nothing can be done to change this fact. Irrationality is hardwired into us. Don't you agree?

 

[Augustus]

I see myself as a partially rational creature, however there is optimism in my mind that science and technology may improve to the point where we can correct serious defects in rationality in individuals that can be safely isolated.

I had a serious defect in rationality (pscizophrenia) and it was corrected through medication, so I see no reason to assume that other rationality defects caused by faulty hard-wiring or chemical imbalance will never be correctable in the future.

Irrationality is not a 'defect' that is to be 'fixed' though.

Irrationality is not caused by 'faulty' hardwiring, it is usually caused by our brains working correctly. We didn't evolve to be humanistic and rational arbiters of objective truth after all.

 

[danieldemol]

Irrationality is not a 'defect' that is to be 'fixed' though.

Irrationality is not caused by 'faulty' hardwiring, it is usually caused by our brains working correctly. We didn't evolve to be humanistic and rational arbiters of objective truth after all.

Humans do many things we weren't evolved to do such as flying through space and deep water diving.

I see no reason why just because we had a certain evolutionary history that can't be altered in the future.

In my opinion.

 

[Estro Felino]

From what source do we have objective absolutely
true morality?
.

From the law. The public law (constitutional law, administrative law and penal law) have objective definition of good and evil.

The preamble of the American Constitution speaks of justice, general welfare (common good).
So the common good is a constitutional axiom.

But the reality is that both in Europe and in the US, the financial élites outrage the Constitution every day with their own selfish actions.

Thar is why the very same élites fund the Frankfurt School ideologies in any university.
So they can vilify the definition of good and evil, which are present in our constitutions.

 

[Revoltingest]

From the law. The public law (constitutional law, administrative law and penal law) have objective definition of good and evil.

Which country's law is the one true morality?

The preambule of the American Constitution speaks of justice, general welfare (common good).
So the common good is a constitutional axiom.

Nothing is argued over more here than which
"common good" is the correct one. Even if we
here all agreed, this doesn't mean that our "good"
is the same as another country's "good".

But the reality is that both in Europe and in the US, the financial élites outrage the Constitution every day with their own selfish actions.

Thar is why the very same élites fund the Frankfurt School ideologies in any university.
So they can vilify the definition of good and evil, which are present in our constitutions.

I say that morality, ethics, good, & evil are human constructs.
They're like religion, ie, people feel strongly like objective
truths to some people, but others, especially we atheists,
see morality as a product of genetics & social interaction.
What we call "good" & "bad" are merely widely accepted
values. And those vary greatly with time & location.
I have values about right & wrong, but they're just my opinion.
One can reason from such premises, but one's conclusions
don't necessarily comport with beliefs of other people.
Rights to abortion, guns, speech, capitalism, religion, etc
are all in vigorous dispute.

 

[Stevicus]

From what source do we have objective absolutely
true morality?

I would happily volunteer for that job.

 

[Revoltingest]

I would happily volunteer for that job.

You have the worst values on the forum though.
(This makes God cry.)

 

[Stevicus]

You have the worst values on the forum though.
(This makes God cry.)

I have the best values, and my morals are impeccable. I'm a boy scout, choir boy, and Dudley Do-Right all rolled into one. God is only crying with joy at how awesome I am.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have the best values, and my morals are impeccable. I'm a boy scout, choir boy, and Dudley Do-Right all rolled into one. God is only crying with joy at how awesome I am.

IOW, you're a Canuckistanian victim of molestation.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Humans are pretty good at doing things deemed impossible through our ability to munipulate our environment. It's possible our technology will at some point result in enough of a decrease in violence that peace will be realized on practical level.

This could be in some form of medical munipulation that changes human behavior.

Or possibly in defensive technology that renders weapons useless.

Or in our technology eliminating needs combined with a political system supporting universal and equal access to the fruits of this technology in a way that renders violence unnecessary and makes pacifism more desirable lest these benefits be lost.

If we continue with our technological development and our population growth, these ideals are going to be ever more imperative. We may not have a choice in the matter.

 

[Stevicus]

IOW, you're a Canuckistanian victim of molestation.

I'm not a Canuckistanian. I'm as American as baseball and apple pie.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not a Canuckistanian. I'm as American as baseball and apple pie.

You're inner Dudley Do-Right is Canuckistanian.

 

[Kooky]

Yes it is rational to accept we are all frequently irrational and nothing can be done to change this fact. Irrationality is hardwired into us. Don't you agree?

How is it rational?

 

[Stevicus]

You're inner Dudley Do-Right is Canuckistanian.

That's just the role he played on TV. We have to give the Canadians someone to root for.

 

[Heyo]

Irrationality is not a 'defect' that is to be 'fixed' though.

Irrationality is not caused by 'faulty' hardwiring, it is usually caused by our brains working correctly. We didn't evolve to be humanistic and rational arbiters of objective truth after all.

That isn't the contended part.
I agree that humans are animals mostly relying on their instincts.

What we don't seem to agree upon is 1. whether humans are principally capable of rational thought and 2. whether we should try to tackle problems rationally.