Capitalism: why eternal growth is self-destructive

[Revoltingest]

You're practically demonstrating that Capitalism need slaves to exploit.

If "slave" means workers who toil for others,
then socialism & communism also need slaves.

We don't have a Star Trek economy wherein
machines provide everything we need for free.
Work or die has always been, & still is a
necessity for every society.
Under your system, everyone would become
a slave to the land. Work it or die.

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually the Capitalists are alarmed...

I'm pleased rather than.
Sure, fewer people means fewer customers,
but it also means fewer competing companies.
Capitalism thrived when Earth's population
was only a tiny fraction of the current level.

Instead of hating capitalism, & wanting to
replace it with something even worse, why
not consider solutions to problems, eh.
Be productive....not just a complainer.

 

[Estro Felino]

Meat is not the only cost the businessman has to cover. They have to pay for facilities, utilities, delivery, packaging, advertisement, legal fees, health inspections, licenses, recruitment, etc... As well as tasking 100% of the risk if the business fails. If any one of these employees would be willing to cover these costs, they could start their own business.

I am speaking of percentages.
Tell me the percentage the Capitalist should get for just owning the business (since he has employees who manage the firm)
Percentage you would give to the entrepreneur
and percentage you would give to the employees.

 

[Estro Felino]

If "slave" means workers who toil for others,
then socialism & communism also need slaves.

We don't have a Star Trek economy wherein
machines provide everything we need for free.
Work or die has always been, & still is a
necessity for every society.
Under your system, everyone would become
a slave to the land. Work it or die.

I don't know if yoy are familiare with Amish communities.
They all till the soil, there. Even physicians.

There are no Capitalists or slaves.

 

[Stevicus]

Getting this thread on track....
Suddenly There Aren't Enough Babies. The Whole World Is Alarmed...
They weren't alarmed when a booming population
was driving up the cost of living, wrecking the climate,
paving over the natural world, denuding the seas of
life, & causing mass extinction. But a stable or
slightly falling population "alarms" them?
Whether an economy is capitalist, socialist, or communist,
this is good....although I'm skeptical that it's durable.

I don't see why the world would be alarmed. How many people do we need, and what do we need them to do?

If the global population is reduced to 5 billion, as it was in 1987, what's the worst that will happen? If it's reduced to 2.5 billion, as it was in 1950, what's the worst that will happen?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You're good at math, right?

This is my question.
A businessman produces ham in his firm.
He spends 100,000 euros on meat every year. And thanks to the work of his employees, he gains 4 million euros a year.
How much money (of those 4 million) should he use to pay his employees?

I may be good at math, but you don't seem to be very good at business if you think 100k buy-ins of meat will magically turn that into 4 millions in sales of processed meat.

The 100k only covers the acquisition of the meat resource.
You need storage facilities. Processing machines. Maintenance of those machines. Packaging of the processed goods. Distribution of those packages. Quality control and making sure everything is in check with food health criteria. Marketing. Finding customers and getting the product into their hands.

Some, sometimes many, of all those things will be outsourced to other companies (typically the marketing, health inspection, machine maintenance and distribution).

Let's turn the question around: how much on top of 100k for acquisition of the basic food resource do you think the company is going to have to invest to get all that meat into a packaged ready for a customer to take home? And that's NOT counting workers along the way.



So to summarize: requires more detail to be answered.

Actually the Capitalists are alarmed...
They will have to increase the wages, if they want someone to work for them...
They crave slaves. Period.

Governments and public law entities benefit from population reduction because they will have fewer people to take care of.

I'm a business owner and capitalist. I can assure you I don't crave slaves.
In fact, many of my employees actually make more money then I do.
Off course I own the company so if we ever sell, I get that check. But that's off course assuming we continue growing and get into a position where investors are actually going to want to buy the company instead of it falling face-first on the ground, which will leave me with nothing.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't know if yoy are familiare with Amish communities.

I said that I am.
I do business with them.
I meet them at engine shows.
What's your experience with them?

They all till the soil, there. Even physicians.

There are no Capitalists or slaves.

This is not so. I know of many who run
& work for businesses rather than farm.
Example...
I bought 2 buildings from Andrew, who
constructs them with wood from his
own sawmill. He has workers employed.
How many Amish do you know?

 

[Estro Felino]

If the global population is reduced to 5 billion, as it was in 1987, what's the worst that will happen? If it's reduced to 2.5 billion, as it was in 1950, what's the worst that will happen?

A mass suicide. Capitalists committing suicide for lack of slave labor force.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Be productive....not just a complainer.

Uhu.

Seems like the modern "woke"-ish mentality.
Complain, complain, complain. Preferably in the most hypocritical manner possible.

 

[Estro Felino]

I said that I am.
I do business with them.
I meet them at engine shows.
What's your experience with them?

This is not so. I know of many who run
& work for businesses rather than farm.
Example...
I bought 2 buildings from Andrew, who
constructs them with wood from his
own sawmill. He has workers employed.
How many Amish do you know?

That is not capitalism.
That is honest work.
Capitalism is what the stock market and the banking system do.

 

[Revoltingest]

If the global population is reduced to 5 billion, as it was in 1987, what's the worst that will happen? If it's reduced to 2.5 billion, as it was in 1950, what's the worst that will happen?

Real estate prices would drop.
Food prices would drop.
Road congestion would drop.
Extinctions would drop.
Natural spaces would expand.
Prison populations would drop.


It's a disaster!

 

[Revoltingest]

Uhu.

Seems like the modern "woke"-ish mentality.
Complain, complain, complain. Preferably in the most hypocritical manner possible.

Don't forget "clueless".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

A mass suicide. Capitalists committing suicide for lack of slave labor force.

Sometimes, I really wonder under which rock you live.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is not capitalism.

Amish man starts business.
He hires workers.
He sells products at a profit.
It's certainly not socialism.

That is honest work.

Ah hah!
We finally glimpse whence your loathing
comes. You believe we're all dishonest.
Let me address that....
**** you!!

That was fun.
Do you even care about destructive economic
growth.....or is it just that you want socialism
to do it instead of capitalism?

 

[Heyo]

Governments and public law entities benefit from population reduction because they will have fewer people to take care of.

People pay taxes and social security. A shrinking population is a headache for everyone managing pensions.
And some countries like to have enough young men (and sometimes women) for their armies.

 

[Nakosis]

I am speaking of percentages.
Tell me the percentage the Capitalist should get for just owning the business (since he has employees who manage the firm)
Percentage you would give to the entrepreneur
and percentage you would give to the employees.

Ideally, what everyone agrees to. However it is highly dependent on market forces.

The last company I worked for, a percentage of the profits was divided among the employees.
Some years there was no profit, in fact there was a loss. However, our wages were guaranteed so it came out of the owners pocket.

 

[Estro Felino]

People pay taxes and social security. A shrinking population is a headache for everyone managing pensions.

There is something called Central Bank.
That prints the money you need to pay the pensions.
And by the way...the GDP is what makes a country rich. Not the number of people.

And some countries like to have enough young men (and sometimes women) for their armies.

In a country like Germany...soldiers are not even the 1% of the population.

 

[Heyo]

Getting this thread on track....
Suddenly There Aren't Enough Babies. The Whole World Is Alarmed...
They weren't alarmed when a booming population
was driving up the cost of living, wrecking the climate,
paving over the natural world, denuding the seas of
life, & causing mass extinction. But a stable or
slightly falling population "alarms" them?

Yep. Because everything is based on growth, not only the capitalist's dividend, also taxes and pensions (which, at least in the US and some other countries, are also based on dividends).

Whether an economy is capitalist, socialist, or communist,
this is good....although I'm skeptical that it's durable.

Stable or slightly falling populations aren't much of a concern, only when it goes too fast, it will disrupt the economy.

 

[Revoltingest]

People pay taxes and social security. A shrinking population is a headache for everyone managing pensions.
And some countries like to have enough young men (and sometimes women) for their armies.

A Ponzi scheme is wonderful until it fails.
Population growth is similar.
Better to eschew both sooner than later.

 

[Estro Felino]

Ideally, what everyone agrees to. However it is highly dependent on market forces.

The last company I worked for, a percentage of the profits was divided among the employees.
Some years there was no profit, in fact there was a loss. However, our wages were guaranteed so it came out of the owners pocket.

Perfect.
Would you be okay with these percentages?
4 million euros:
- 2.5 million to the employees.
- 1 million for the production (except wages)
- 0.5 million for the entrepreneur.