Can theists really reconcile evolution with their beliefs?

[Opethian]

People that believe in the supernatural are people that cannot accept that the truth is quite boring. Everything is explicable, whether you like it or not. Don't you think I would love it if there actually was something spiritual, something supernatural, an afterlife? I'm all for it, but I've come to know enough and see enough to realise it is nothing but vain hope.

Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

 

[Draka]

People that believe in the supernatural are people that cannot accept that the truth is quite boring. Everything is explicable, whether you like it or not. Don't you think I would love it if there actually was something spiritual, something supernatural, an afterlife? I'm all for it, but I've come to know enough and see enough to realise it is nothing but vain hope.

Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

Not everything is explicable in the terms you like to think they are. Sure everything is explainable, just not always in the terms you want them to be. And as for coming to know enough and see enough...there are many in their 80's that would never go so far as to say that. There is always much to see and learn, and to even claim that you know enough to discount the possibility for something to exist that so many people find exist...well, that is either ignorance itself, or youthful pride that age will eventually cure. You DON'T know...and that's the rub. No one does, but to keep your mind open to all the possibilities is to keep all roads open and be open to receive more knowledge than you could ever hope to get. I'm not saying that all atheists are wrong, or that any religion is right...but that allowing for the possibility is always a good thing. One side will always say the other has blinders on. Maybe so...but who really knows which side really wears them? And who really cares?

 

[Opethian]

It's just that one side actually tries to explain something in an accurate way, while the others says "Heck, I don't want to do any effort, let's just say goddidit..."

 

[Draka]

It's just that one side actually tries to explain something in an accurate way, while the others says "Heck, I don't want to do any effort, let's just say goddidit..."

Not exactly...first off my response is not "goddidit", second...it's called looking for any other possible logical scientific explanation first and when all has failed finding a supernatural explanation for it.

I happen to know of this house, a rental, that many different, unrelated people have lived in. I have had the opportunity to meet some of the people that have lived in that house at different times...myself included. All have the same experiences. ALL have described what sounds like footsteps upstairs when no one is there. Things literally FLYING across the room on their own. SEEING people that aren't there. Hearing sounds and voices when no one else is there. These things have been witnessed by more than just one person at a time. I know when I lived there I had about 5 or 6 people in the living room that ALL saw and heard the same thing at once. We were not all delusional and illogical people. We did not make it up. There was no trick involved. And not all of them even BELIEVED in that sort of thing...but what they witnessed was undeniable. I know of a guy who once lived there that I met later on and he absolutely DID NOT believe in "ghosts" and whatnot, very much like you actually. This man told me that that house changed his mind. Because he heard...footsteps upstairs when no one was up there...and a person WALK PAST him that was not there...did not know the person...they were almost translucent...and it scared the bejeezes out of him. Among other things as well...he also told of a couple nick nacks of his that were always moved from one spot to another...once he SAW them move in front of him. This house doesn't have much a history of anyone living there long. No one stays living there for more than a year or two.

Now this is just one example of this kind of stuff...and you can certainly try to say that I am making it all up, you can try to come up with rational scientific explanations for the things such as sitting in your living room and a statue on the entertainment center up and flying across the room and into the couch with no physical touching. You can even try to say that all the different people in that house, at any given time, are all delusional and hallucinating and sick in the head. You go right ahead...doesn't make this thing any less real or valid.

 

[roli]

[

quote=Draka]Not exactly...first off my response is not "goddidit", second...it's called looking for any other possible logical scientific explanation first and when all has failed finding a supernatural explanation for it.

I understand what you are saying in regards to mere man naturally attributing things to God,it is not in our nature to do so initially.

We have always tried to refute, defy and argue against God or any authority from infancy to adulthood.
From the natural laws of the universe and governing authorities in our governments,workplace and homes we have oppossed authority figures
Instead of defiance ,rebellion and disobedience they call it liberalism, relativism and humanism.
Even more so the laws that exist in everyone of us (conscience) which is in and of itself a code of ethics and morals that are naturally built into every human life before birth.
The conscience is not given by parents but through the parents built upon,instilled and matured.
What would that indicate and imply of man if we actually did associate such universal phenomenon to a God who "apparently " created and governs this universe.?
Would we appear defeatist's, inept,weak or would it just be an insult to our intelligence.

That is why many of the scientists and apparent evolutionists are fearful of and therefore have remained supportive of the theories for fear of their careers,funding and of course image.
What would they look like to their peers and society if they refuted evolution.
I think the anti-theists are driven more by mere mortal logic ,pride and igo to disprove God because of what God may invoke on all who refuse to recieve Him.

This becomes a means of justification ,but God will clearly look thru all the red tape right to the heart of why the real reason man refuted and disbelieved in Him

Science is not proof of evolution or creation it is only a description of a system that aquires particular knowledge to help try and ascertain the knowledge of the universe
The word science is so over rated and misappropiated and it has become in and of itself a religion and or diety, what's up with that.
The creation studying the creation.:banghead3

In conclusion we are no further ahead with our understanding of this universe then the greek philosophers and the jewish scholars were all through history.
God is beyond our natural ability to comprehend yet we all the more eagerly press toward the notion that one link will be made to prove evolution thus disprove God
This will ultimately only bring us back to the same place we started.
One thought creates a new thought until we die off then the next generation reciprocates the proccess handed down to them through their ape like ancestors.Knockout

But in relation to your response,it's true and quite interesting how we must exhaust our resources and capabilities thru all our experiments and logic before we call on God and it's even more amazing that it takes adversity and tradgedy to initiate that.

 

[robtex]

Let me see if I can put it to yall another way. Before Darwin there was this fella called Jean Lamarck. (footnotes 1 and 2). He believed that animals became better adapted to their envirorment with each passing generation. That there was constant progress forward. This is called "The law of inheritance.(footnote 3). That is consistant with the notion of a GUIDED UNIVERSE which is the thestic implication within the paradigm of a personal God.

Along comes Darwin in the new generation of bioglogy theory with his theory of natural selection which states their is NOT A GUIDED process but a natural process and species born with certain attributes will have a natural advantage over others in nature.

The law of inheritance and natural selection four things:

1) mutual exclusive. One cannot subscribe to both or meld the theories together.
2) One is consistant with a guided universe and the other with a non-guided universe. 3) Natural selection is consistant with the current evolutionary biology and genetics theory of genetic drift. The "law of inheritance" is not.
4) The law of inheritance is consistant with the notion of a personal God who guides the universe (aka a theistic god) and the laws of natural selection and genetic drift (aka random (not guided) mutation) are not.

In short the modern definitions of natural selection, random mutuation and genetic drift are inconsistant and incompatable with a theistic God. If you are looking at a thestic universe and accepting portions of evolution you are likly more intune with Lamarck's "Law of inheritance" which is rejected by modern biology and genetics.

footnotes:
1) http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/lamarck.html
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarck
3) Genetic principle: Human and Social Consequences, Gordon Edlin, 1984 Jones and Barlett publishers isbn 0-86720-016-2

 

[robtex]

Roli, it sounds like you are a creationists. I was targeting theists who try to combine evolution and their religion as opposed to creationists who reject evolution. If you reject evolution than you have nothing to reconcile.

 

[Draka]

Let me explain just one thing to you Robtex. One can be a theist and not believe that everything is planned biologically. I have no problem what-so-ever accepting the biological implications and fact of evolution. None at all. My belief is a belief in a spiritual side to us that is aside and apart of our physical hosts. What happens to this body and how it got to the point it is at and where it goes from here is evolution. It is biology. Spiritually...I view it as a mere vehicle for my spirit's time here. The main difference between us is that I believe that there is more to me that is not physical at all and you don't. Understand that I AGREE with you on evolution. Therefore you can maintain all you wish that I cannot truly reconcile evolution and my beliefs but as you don't know nor comprehend what exactly my beliefs are inside my head and only how I can begin to describe them, you cannot truly judge what I believe and how it works with evolution.

 

[Nehustan]

I believe and I have studied Evolution and Genetics, no problem here.

 

[Opethian]

happen to know of this house, a rental, that many different, unrelated people have lived in. I have had the opportunity to meet some of the people that have lived in that house at different times...myself included. All have the same experiences. ALL have described what sounds like footsteps upstairs when no one is there. Things literally FLYING across the room on their own. SEEING people that aren't there. Hearing sounds and voices when no one else is there. These things have been witnessed by more than just one person at a time. I know when I lived there I had about 5 or 6 people in the living room that ALL saw and heard the same thing at once. We were not all delusional and illogical people. We did not make it up. There was no trick involved. And not all of them even BELIEVED in that sort of thing...but what they witnessed was undeniable. I know of a guy who once lived there that I met later on and he absolutely DID NOT believe in "ghosts" and whatnot, very much like you actually. This man told me that that house changed his mind. Because he heard...footsteps upstairs when no one was up there...and a person WALK PAST him that was not there...did not know the person...they were almost translucent...and it scared the bejeezes out of him. Among other things as well...he also told of a couple nick nacks of his that were always moved from one spot to another...once he SAW them move in front of him. This house doesn't have much a history of anyone living there long. No one stays living there for more than a year or two.

Now this is just one example of this kind of stuff...and you can certainly try to say that I am making it all up, you can try to come up with rational scientific explanations for the things such as sitting in your living room and a statue on the entertainment center up and flying across the room and into the couch with no physical touching. You can even try to say that all the different people in that house, at any given time, are all delusional and hallucinating and sick in the head. You go right ahead...doesn't make this thing any less real or valid.

If something like this actually happened or a house like this existed, surely the media would have covered it or someone would have examined it...

 

[Popeyesays]

I have no difficulty whatsoever balancing the science of evolutionary theory with the idea that God is the author of Creation.

Evolution is mechanical process where by life prospers and advances. If one considers "man" as a different kingdom of creation, related to but "different", the animal, vegetable and mineral Kingdoms, one has no problem.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Draka]

If something like this actually happened or a house like this existed, surely the media would have covered it or someone would have examined it...

First off there are houses like this all over. I have been in more than one haunted house in just this one town. Second...who in the world is going to report on every house that has supernatural properties to it? EVERYTHING has imprints from the dead, just some imprints are stronger than others and therefore manifest in the physical world for them to be experienced. No one is going to make a big thing in the "media" about some house, or even more than one house, in a town of 25,000 people or so. Who cares? Freaky things like this happen all the time. Some people refuse to believe them, some try to over-explain them, but they happen. It is not news worthy. Some things like this get on tv quite frequently, but they are more than likely more well-known places/cities that are highlighted...or more extreme circumstances where people are actually getting hurt. Just because it's not on NBC or CNN doesn't mean it didn't happen. And I gaurantee that it happened thank you. I and others have witnessed such. If you care to call me a liar then perhaps we shouldn't even conversate.

 

[Popeyesays]

First off there are houses like this all over. I have been in more than one haunted house in just this one town. Second...who in the world is going to report on every house that has supernatural properties to it? EVERYTHING has imprints from the dead, just some imprints are stronger than others and therefore manifest in the physical world for them to be experienced. No one is going to make a big thing in the "media" about some house, or even more than one house, in a town of 25,000 people or so. Who cares? Freaky things like this happen all the time. Some people refuse to believe them, some try to over-explain them, but they happen. It is not news worthy. Some things like this get on tv quite frequently, but they are more than likely more well-known places/cities that are highlighted...or more extreme circumstances where people are actually getting hurt. Just because it's not on NBC or CNN doesn't mean it didn't happen. And I gaurantee that it happened thank you. I and others have witnessed such. If you care to call me a liar then perhaps we shouldn't even conversate.

Well, I am told by my faith that the next world is as close as "your life's vein". In the Qur'an it says it as closer than one's jugular vein. If its that close why should there NOT be places and circumstances where resonance crosses both ways.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Nehustan]

I hate to argue with you Scott, but the Quran states that Allah is as close as your own Jugula, and yet he is 'istawa al Arsh'. The akhirah is not Allah and is bellow al Arsh, Islamically speaking.

 

[Draka]

This thread has gone askew from the OP and I am quite to blame. So anyone who wishes to continue with the line of discussion that I was persuing with some concerning the supernatural please go here.

 

[robtex]

Let me explain just one thing to you Robtex. One can be a theist and not believe that everything is planned biologically. I have no problem what-so-ever accepting the biological implications and fact of evolution. None at all. My belief is a belief in a spiritual side to us that is aside and apart of our physical hosts. What happens to this body and how it got to the point it is at and where it goes from here is evolution. It is biology. Spiritually...I view it as a mere vehicle for my spirit's time here. The main difference between us is that I believe that there is more to me that is not physical at all and you don't. Understand that I AGREE with you on evolution. Therefore you can maintain all you wish that I cannot truly reconcile evolution and my beliefs but as you don't know nor comprehend what exactly my beliefs are inside my head and only how I can begin to describe them, you cannot truly judge what I believe and how it works with evolution.

Ok lets say you are a theist (as opposed to a deist) who feels that the universe is prescribed how evolutionary biologists have suggest. Through random mutation with no guiding force. And lets say for the sake of arguement that God exists and that as you speculate, he set the plan of evolution in motion, as a completely neutral (as it is random) unguided force after he/she created the universe. Two new problems arise if you are theistic inclinded.

1) you are acknowledging that human's existance was not a planned event but a natural event and by-product of random mutation. This means god did not create the universe for man but created the universe and whatever evolution randomly spit out lives there.

2) The God who would put a neutral unbais-random process in motion is not likely a God with a personal interest or relationship with mankind. As a product of evolution man's existance was a random act which is contradicatory to the notion of "a personal God" as far as man's perspective goes. The reason I say this is because God being powerful enough to create a universe had the lattitude to guide the universe or not guide it.

If you take what you said in the post I qouted and apply it to the context of the opening post new problems arise. If you believe in an afterlife (which biology nor genetics recognize as far as each living animal goes) that further stipulates a personal God and if God went through such efforts to ensure either reincarnation or everlasting life it would seem contradictory in principle for him not to guide the universe.

If you believe in souls and spirts (again not acknowledge by organic sciences) and you belive in evolution there are two options from here:

1) the soul evolved from some less evolved life form.
2) The soul did not evolve

If you choose # 1 than I would ask you to name what it evolved from. If you say # 2 than I would say to you two things: 1) There is nothing living outside the field of evolution and # 2) A God who makes a soul is guiding (as it not a propostion of random mutation) a universe which again conflicts the the random mutuation theory of the modern organic sciences.

 

[Draka]

Two new problems arise if you are theistic inclinded.

Not problems at all...read on.

1) you are acknowledging that human's existance was not a planned event but a natural event and by-product of random mutation. This means god did not create the universe for man but created the universe and whatever evolution randomly spit out lives there.

And what is wrong with that idea? Who says that man is the pinnacle of all there is? Not me. I don't for one second believe that the universe was "created" for man. How egotistical a thought that is! Who says that the universe was even "created" anyway? I'm not saying that the universe was "created" by a god. Just that something greater than us exists that we are all a small part of.

2) The God who would put a neutral unbais-random process in motion is not likely a God with a personal interest or relationship with mankind. As a product of evolution man's existance was a random act which is contradicatory to the notion of "a personal God" as far as man's perspective goes. The reason I say this is because God being powerful enough to create a universe had the lattitude to guide the universe or not guide it.

I believe that we are all a part of something greater. Not just man deary. Everything. Everything has a connection. We are all "children" of this existence by being a part of it and just being alive and sharing the world in which we live. The world by the way, is in reference to everything everywhere. Not just Earth. So if we are all a part of the same essence then that essence is intregal to us and we to it.

And just a hypothetical here for your scientific mind: If there is a god creator and they let things just happen then maybe it is because we are all just one big petrie dish to it. We are an amusing experiment for the humor of something else. Not what I believe really, but I think you get my drift.

If you take what you said in the post I qouted and apply it to the context of the opening post new problems arise. If you believe in an afterlife (which biology nor genetics recognize as far as each living animal goes) that further stipulates a personal God and if God went through such efforts to ensure either reincarnation or everlasting life it would seem contradictory in principle for him not to guide the universe.

First, reincarnation has nothing to do with biology or genetics so why would they recognize it? Next, if you take what I said before, as to us being all a part of something greater, then that itself is everlasting and renewable in lifeforms. The part of essence that we are takes connection to a physical body and when that body dies it takes connection to another one. This does not mean that we are guided or that it was "set up" for our benefit. It just is what we are.

If you believe in souls and spirts (again not acknowledge by organic sciences) and you belive in evolution there are two options from here:

1) the soul evolved from some less evolved life form.
2) The soul did not evolve

If you choose # 1 than I would ask you to name what it evolved from. If you say # 2 than I would say to you two things: 1) There is nothing living outside the field of evolution and # 2) A God who makes a soul is guiding (as it not a propostion of random mutation) a universe which again conflicts the the random mutuation theory of the modern organic sciences.

option 3) The soul is not evolved from a lesser life form because the soul is not a living physical thing. It is a part of a larger essence that is not a part of this physical plane of existence, but on another plane of existence that is mutual and overlaying upon this one...often known as the ethereal or astral plane. Therefore it is not in the realm that evolution has dominance over = the physical realm.

I know this probaly seems like stereo instructions written in Japanese, backwards and upside down for you, but it is what it is. Your "problems" are not problems for me. It is the answer to your question of how I "reconcile" my beliefs with evolution.

 

[Draka]

Another thought Robtex...your arguments work great when dealing perhaps with Christianity or other dogmatic and/or creation based religions; however, you find a stumbling block when dealing with pagan religions where the line of beliefs are quite different. You can't apply the same arguments or defined "problems" to completely different belief systems. Had I been defending a popular Christian POV you would have thwarted me at every turn; however, I am not and I don't believe as most Christians do anyway. I am pagan and have a completely different look on life, science, and spirituality, and how they are working together.

 

[robtex]

I wanted more abrhamic input on this thread. Anbody got speculations on reconcilations of the OP?

 

[Sunstone]

It's my understanding that some pantheists, at least, can readily reconcile evolution with their beliefs in deity.

BTW, who is to say the natural and supernatural are not two aspects of the same thing, created simultaneously in the Big Bang? Such an idea is at least as plausible as pixie dust or, for that matter, the God of the OT, IMHO.