Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[JM2C]

Scripture to back this up please. This is the same oneness......where does it state a different "oneness"? Jesus is equating his relationship with God to Mary's. He is the same God and Father to Jesus as he is to Mary. How can you not see that?

Why can’t you see this: The Lord Jesus’ union with His Father is as “the only begotten God –John 1:18” while the disciples, True Christians, are through adoptions. “He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ –Eph 1:5”, “waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons –Romans 8:23. Read also John 1:12-13.

 

[JM2C]

Does that mean acknowledging Moses as a God to Pharoah makes us pagans? (Ex 7:1)

Moses was put in a position of mightiness in relation to Pharoah, he was Jehovah's agent. He was not some false god made out of wood and stone. He was a real living person. He was in all intensive purposes "a god"

Have you ever been subject to a human judge's ruling? For the purpose of that ruling that judge was "a god" to you. (Ps 82:6; John 10:34) That does not mean you worshiped the judge. But he was more mighty than you.

God used Moses at that time frame ONLY as His representative or as God to Pharaoh and Aaron as Moses’ prophet. Now, after the Israelites were taken out of Egypt nothing was mentioned again about Moses as God to the Israelites and Aaron as Moses’s prophet.

PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND:
What we are debating in John 1:1 occurred indefinitely, continuously, no time limit from eternity, as the word “EN/WAS” is suggesting, when there was nothing yet but God and the Word.

What happened after the beginning was part of the creations. If God used Moses as God to Pharaoh this does NOT change anything that HAPPENED BEFORE THE BEGINNING, and that is, “AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD” “AND THE WORD WAS GOD”

IOW, you cannot say that the “WORD” was an “a god” because God used Moses as God in Exodus. You have to separate the before the beginning and after the beginning because they are totally different. Based on the Scriptures there was NOTHING BUT GOD AND THE WORD before everything was created. After the beginning Moses was used as God and people and judges were called gods. All these were part of the creations after the beginning and you/jw need to separate all these before the beginning.

THIS IS A SIMPLE DEDUCTIVE REASONING.

YOU/jw SHOULD BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THIS WITH YOUR EVERYDAY COMMON SENSE.

 

[JM2C]

God did not create Jesus before the beginning. Jesus was the beginning. That is, as the very first creation, creation started with his being formed. Before the beginning there was only Jehovah.

How many times I have to post this?
You have to get this into your head. You cannot exegetically interpret/translate the 3rd clause into your own translation/alteration, i.e., NWT, if you will base your understanding from clauses 1 and 2.

The word “en/was” is in imperfect tense means before the beginning “the Word” and “the God” –clause #2- were together or at each other side already as suggested in verse 18, “the only begotten God who is at the bosom of the Father”. There was no mention of any creation before the beginning.

IOW, they, the Son/the Word, i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ, and the God, i.e., the Father were together before the beginning, i.e., from eternity.

Can we pinpoint the exact time they begun this relationship from eternity? WE CANNOT base on the word “EN/WAS” imperfect tense.

IOW, THE IMPERFECT TENSE “EN/WAS” IS SUGGESTING THE TIME FROM THE PAST OCCURRENCE, I.E., BEFORE THE BEGINNING, AS INDEFINITE, UNDERTERMINE, UNDIFINE. TIME IS IRRELEVANT BEFORE THE BEGINNING OR THERE WAS NO TIME IN ETERNITY THEREFORE THERE WAS NO CREATION.

NO HUMAN MIND CAN COMPREHEND THE MEANING OF ETERNITY IF WE COULD JUST FOLLOW ON WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THE WORD “EN/WAS”.

SIMPLY PUT, “EN/WAS” OCCURRED IN ETERNITY THAT WE DON’T KNOW NOTHING ABOUT EXCEPT WHAT John SAID IN John 1:1-3.

AFTER THE BEGINNING HUMAN MIND DID COMPREHEND AS WAS DECLARED IN THE BIBLE, BUT BEFORE THIS ONLY GOD THE FATHER, AND GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN FULLY COMPREHEND ETERNITY.

IOW, ANYTHING FROM ETERNITY IS “INEXPRESSIBLE” WITH THE HUMAN MIND EXCEPT FOR THE THINGS OR WORDS THAT GOD DECLARED IN THE BIBLE.

2CO 12:4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

God gave John permission to write something that happened from eternity, and that is, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. –John 1:1”.

God did not give John permission to say or write “And the Word was a god” just like God did not give jw permission to prophesy the end of the world.

DT 18:21 “ You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’

DT 18:22 “ When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

IOW, jw created an “a god” in John 1:1 on which God did not permit them to do so, and prophesy the end of the world on which God did not permit them to do so.

Now, are they/jw speaking from God or from “other/heteros gods”? Scriptures will tell us.

DT 18:20 ‘But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’

So, if the Scripture is telling us that anyone “who speaks a word presumptuously” in the name of God on which He did not commanded them/jw to speak, then they/jw are speaking “in the name of other gods”, then they/jw are nothing but PAGANS.

 

[JM2C]

Romans 14 can understandably be messy with all the "Lord" being used in most translations. You are correct in that Romans 14:11 quotes Isa 45:23. And in the Isaiah verse the divine name is clearly evident, and thus very transferable to verse 11. Over the centuries, Hebrew Translations of this chapter have restored the divine name to vs 4,6, and 8 as well.

As much as you may find it frustrating and sad that we do not recognize Jesus as God, we too find it sometimes frustrating and sad that Trinitarians worship the messenger as if he were the message sender. (Col 2:18)

If God commanded Moses in Ex 20:3 “no other gods” and Ex 20:5 “You shall not BOW DOWN, or WORSHIP them”, and in Philippians 2:10-11 Paul stated “at the name of Jesus every knee should BOW, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,” that he/Paul quoted from Isaiah 45:23, and Isaiah was referring this statement to God, and Paul repeated this verse, Isaiah 45:23, in Romans 14:11 and referred it to God, then we can only conclude that The Lord Jesus Christ is not Michael but God.

Paul instructed the Colossians not to worship angels in,

Col 2:18 “Let no man rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he hath seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”

The question is, would you rather bow down the Lord Jesus Christ today here on earth or under the earth where everything is too late? Because that is what the verse is saying “every knee” as in all creatures/mortals in heaven and on earth and under the earth will bow down to the Lord Jesus Christ”
NO EXCEPTIONS, that is, including your/jw IMAGINARY 144,000 MEMBERS.

 

[JM2C]

Your "one god" is a three headed freak who is not even mentioned by the Jews in all their history.

Is that why Maimonides changed “echad” to “yachid” because he saw the Triune God? Is that why you/jw changed “And the Word was God” to “And the Word was a god” because you/jw saw the Triune God?

If you did not read the trinity into verses in the scriptures, you would never find it. There is no direct statement...not one.

This threesome is not the God of Jesus Christ....unless of course he worships part of himself.

You can’t argue what you can’t understand, but some people do, like you/jw, but you are arguing from ignorance.

 

[JM2C]

How can God give part of himself a name above all others? He already has a name that it above all others....One that never changes. (Ex 3:15)

You are questioning your ability to understand.

This may help you understand Phil 2:9

Ac 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other/heteros/different name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

“under heaven” is earth, right? Why it did not say “under the earth” like the one in Phil 2:10? What is the difference? Those who are still here on earth can be save by just believing “in the name of the only begotten Son of God –John 3:18”

What about those “under the earth”? These are those who did not believe “in the name of the only begotten Son of God –John 3:18”

At the end all will bow down before the Lord Jesus Christ whether you are in heaven or here on earth or under the earth. NO EXCEPTIONS, that is, including your/jw IMAGINARY 144,000 MEMBERS.

 

[JM2C]

As the appointed king of God's kingdom, that is a no brainer......of course we would bow to our king. Those in heaven, those on earth and those resurrected from their graves.....everyone will acknowledge God's reigning king.
We have already addressed this passage many times. Whose "glory" is spoken about here....Jesus' or his Father's?
What is the meaning of the title "LORD".....? It doesn't mean "God".

You don't see what you don't want to.

Read it again without the trinitarian glasses.....

If you read that verse in context Paul tells you exactly what it means.

Romans 14:10-12....."But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand beforethe judgment seat of God. For it is written,“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.” So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God."(NASB)

This is God, not Jesus. Do you see where Paul says "it is written"? He was quoting Isa 45:23 as you have said.

Now look at Isa 49:18, which says......“Lift up your eyes and look around; All of them gather together, they come to you.As I live,” declares the Lord,“You will surely put on all of them as jewels and bind them on as a bride."

"The LORD" in these verse is Jehovah. The Tetragrammaton is in the original text. Jesus is not Jehovah.

Hebrews 6:13...."For when God made the promise to Abraham,since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself"
"As I live" is a declaration by Jehovah....because he can't swear an oath by any name higher than his own.

You are free to uphold your trinitarian god. Who am I to take him from you?

Embrace him, but don't say you were not warned about putting another god in place of Jehovah "the only true God". (John 17:3; Ex 20:3)

I am done with this brick wall.

The word we are looking for is “BOW” So, all you need to DO is follow the word “BOW”. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?

HERE WE GO AGAIN.

If God commanded Moses in Ex 20:3 “no other gods” and Ex 20:5 “You shall not BOW DOWN, or WORSHIP them”, and in Philippians 2:10-11 Paul stated “at the name of Jesus every knee should BOW, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,” that he/Paul quoted from Isaiah 45:23, and Isaiah was referring this statement to God, and Paul repeated this verse, Isaiah 45:23, in Romans 14:11 and referred it to God, then we can only conclude that The Lord Jesus Christ is not Michael OR AN "a god" but God.

Do you think Paul, "a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; -Phil 3:5" would teach Christians back then to "BOW" down to an "a god", like what you/jw guys are doing today with your paganism, if the Lord Jesus Christ is not God? Just think about that.

Paul instructed the Colossians not to worship angels in,

Col 2:18 “Let no man rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he hath seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”

The question is, would you rather bow down the Lord Jesus Christ today here on earth or under the earth where everything is too late? Because that is what the verse is saying “every knee” as in all creatures/mortals in heaven and on earth and under the earth will bow down to the Lord Jesus Christ” NO EXCEPTIONS, that is, including your/jw IMAGINARY 144,000 MEMBERS.

 

[Unification]

If the Son is the spokesman for the Father, and no one has ever heard the Father's voice... Then it was the Son saying, "I am the Lord your God."

The only difference is that the Son is God within a human. Inside of them. . And never was a single fleshly man. . But all Spirit.

Only place any human can ever find and know God is within them. Through and IN themselves.

 

[sojourner]

If the Son is the spokesman for the Father, and no one has ever heard the Father's voice... Then it was the Son saying, "I am the Lord your God."

The only difference is that the Son is God within a human. Inside of them. . And never was a single fleshly man. . But all Spirit.

Only place any human can ever find and know God is within them. Through and IN themselves.

Nope. Not according to orthodoxy -- and not according to the Doctrine. Jesus is God and was fully human.

 

[Unification]

Nope. Not according to orthodoxy -- and not according to the Doctrine. Jesus is God and was fully human.

"According to" those that is truth. One should only be concerned with according to Spirit.

 

[Kolibri]

HERE WE GO AGAIN.

I will save you the trouble. I am going to unwatch this thread for a while.

 

[JayJayDee]

I will save you the trouble. I am going to unwatch this thread for a while.

How many times have we tried to explain that "bowing" (proskyneo) to someone is not always worship, but can be honor rendered to a personage who is in a position to deserve it.

The magi "bowed" (proskyneo) to Jesus but it was to a "king of the Jews", not someone they considered to be a god.

And of course we invented the 144,000...nothing to do with the number in Revelation who are chosen from the earth as "firstfruits". (Rev 14:1, 3,4)
Those in Christendom are all going to heaven because....well, they just are. No thought of why or what it means to be a king and a priest. (Rev 20:6) No thought of who they will rule or for whom they will act as priests....

It is enough now. You just can't get through the indoctrination. We tried. Hopefully the readers will check the scriptures for themselves. Have a nice rest.....

 

[sojourner]

"According to" those that is truth. One should only be concerned with according to Spirit.

...aaaaand the Spirit is discerned "according to" one's understanding. What you're essentially saying is, "I'm right, because I believe I'm right." Which, of course, isn't objective truth in the least.

 

[JM2C]

I will save you the trouble. I am going to unwatch this thread for a while.

Why the shoe box is empty now?

 

[JM2C]

How many times have we tried to explain that "bowing" (proskyneo) to someone is not always worship, but can be honor rendered to a personage who is in a position to deserve it.

The magi "bowed" (proskyneo) to Jesus but it was to a "king of the Jews", not someone they considered to be a god.

“But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting. –Micah 5:2”

Mt 1:23 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”—which means, “God with us.”

“From everlasting –Micah 5:2” compare this to “In the beginning was the Word –John 1:1” and “before Abraham was born, I am –John 8:58” and “Immanuel –which means, God with us –Matthew 1:23”

That was the reason why they wanted to worship the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JM2C]

And of course we invented the 144,000...nothing to do with the number in Revelation who are chosen from the earth as "firstfruits". (Rev 14:1, 3,4)

The 144,000 are the literal Semitic Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel, and these are NOT Your/jw IMAGINARY 144,000 ELITE MEMBERS.

These are the literal genetically related Semitic Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel.

IOW, NONE OF YOU/jw GUYS HAVE ANY RIGHTS AT ALL TO BE IN THIS GROUP

Rev 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

Rev 7:5
From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000

Rev 7:6,
from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000

Rev 7:7,
from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000

Rev 7:8,
from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

 

[JM2C]

Those in Christendom are all going to heaven because....well, they just are. No thought of why or what it means to be a king and a priest. (Rev 20:6) No thought of who they will rule or for whom they will act as priests....

It is enough now. You just can't get through the indoctrination. We tried. Hopefully the readers will check the scriptures for themselves. Have a nice rest.....

After the release of satan –Rev 20:7, “He will go out to deceive the nations from every corner of the earth” –Rev 20:8. “And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city” –Rev 20:9

Who are these God’s people? They cannot be those who were “FIRST RESURRECTED” in Rev 20:4 and John 5:29, and 1Thess 4:16 because they are already reigning with Christ.

In 1Thessalonians Paul said, 1TH 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

1Thess 4:17 is after the first resurrection described in 1Th 4:16, Rev 20:4, John 5:29.

There is only one “first resurrection” in Rev 20:4 and 1Thess 4:16 and one “second resurrection” in Rev 20:11-12. Both these resurrections are written in John 5:29 and Daniel 12:2.

God’s people or “the saints” describe in Rev 20:9 were the same God’s people Paul was describing 1 Thess. 4:17 “then we who are alive and remain” here on earth, after the “FIRST RESURRECTION” in 1Thess 4:16, John 5:29, and Rev 20:4.

Between 1Thess 4:16 and 1Thess 4:17 is Rev 20:4 the “Thousand Years”.

Was Paul expecting this “FIRST RESURRECTION” that it would happen in his lifetime and after that the “The Thousand Years” will begin? Or did he know that the “Rapture” in 1Thess 4:17 will take place after the “Thousand Years”?

The “Thousand Years” could be happening or done already as we speak since no one can know if God did the “FIRST RESURRECTION” already. With all the deceiving that is happening every day “the abomination that causes desolation –Matthew 24:15” and compare this to 2Thess 2:4. Remember Paul was talking about the Church apostasy as one of the sign in 2Thess. The deceiver is inside the congregation as we speak deceiving Christians.

Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Now, there were two signs Paul gave in 2nd Thessalonians about the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The apostasy and the Wicked man -2Thess 2:3.

And from this verse we can read that “He, the ministry of the Holy Spirit -2Thess 2:7” is holding for the revelation of the “Wicked one” until this “He, the ministry of the Holy Spirit -2Thess 2:7” is taken away. The revelation of the “Wicked one” is not for the saints but for the unbelievers who “refused to love the truth and so be saved -2Thess 2:10”

When this “He, the ministry of the Holy Spirit -2Thess 2:7” is about to be taken away then 1Thess 4:17 “then we who are alive and remain” [this is after the “Thousand Years” the revelation of satan –Rev 20:7, 2Thess 2:7] the rapture of the saints will take place, and this is between Rev 20:7 and Rev 20:9, and in 2Thess 2:8 the revelation of the “wicked one” will be revealed to those people described in 2Thess 2:9-12 “they perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved -2Thess 2:10”

After the rapture of the saints there is no need for the “the ministry of the Holy Spirit -2Thess 2:7” and that is the reason why He will be taken away with the saints.

These people, 2Thess 2:10, don’t have any idea that they are in the inner circle of satan “the secret power of lawlessness -2Thess 2:7” until God revealed it to them in 2Thess 2:8 “whom the Lord Jesus Christ shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming”. Read Rev 20:9.

God’s revelation of the “Wicked one” to those who “refused to love the truth and so be saved -2Thess 2:10” is after the “Rapture” of the saints. The ministry of the Holy Spirit will revert back like the one in Genesis 6:3.

Read Revelation 20:9-10 and compare that to 2nd Thess 2:8 and you will understand that this is the end of satan.

There cannot be two events of destroying satan by the Lord Jesus Christ.

The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is “not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him. –Heb 9:28”, and judgment time for those people “refused to love the truth and so be saved -2Thess 2:10”.

The 2nd coming of the Lord Jesus is about judgment and this is the meaning of “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father –Phil 2:10-11”

 

[Unification]

...aaaaand the Spirit is discerned "according to" one's understanding. What you're essentially saying is, "I'm right, because I believe I'm right." Which, of course, isn't objective truth in the least.

Clearly what was said was the Spirit is right. God is right.
Clearly you made this about me, assumption due to egotistical emotion, and pride, which is always a lie and never truth or objective truth.

 

[sojourner]

Clearly what was said was the Spirit is right. God is right.
Clearly you made this about me, assumption due to egotistical emotion, and pride, which is always a lie and never truth or objective truth.

Clearly what I said was that we have no way of objectively knowing what is the Spirit and what is the individual, because the Spirit is discerned through the understanding of the individual (which is incomplete). It's Not. About. You. It's about everyone. You say "It's the Spirit, because the Spirit is always right." But your understanding of "right" is incomplete and subjective. IOW, you don't have access to objective truth. No one does.

 

[Unification]

Clearly what I said was that we have no way of objectively knowing what is the Spirit and what is the individual, because the Spirit is discerned through the understanding of the individual (which is incomplete). It's Not. About. You. It's about everyone. You say "It's the Spirit, because the Spirit is always right." But your understanding of "right" is incomplete and subjective. IOW, you don't have access to objective truth. No one does.

Everyone has access.
The Spirit within.
Not many know how or want to access this Spirit because that means everything they think they know has to die, one holds onto to the "I" and "me" and "their" knowledge, and refuse to let go and be taught. One must decrease and the Spirit must increase.