cataway
Well-Known Member
lets see if you know when she has to wear a head covering . tell us please
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Can someone explain the Trinity please...
- Thread starter Youtellme
- Start date
Unification
Well-Known Member
That was already established. . And I grieve for her.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Same here.
And here I thought we were making some progress. What a lot of unnecessary effort I seem to have put into this conversation.
Yes, they do appear to have done so once again.
I could argue my position using the Bible only, but it does seem pointless. And it would give you one more thing to cry, "Blasphemy!" over. I'm afraid I just don't feel up to that. I was honestly so encouraged by how things were going between us. I should have known better.I would like any Bible reference that causes you to believe the Father has a physical body. You already know how I feel about going outside the Bible. That's a topic for another thread, and I seriously doubt either of us would change how we view it.But if you have Bible verses, please share.
They are three distinct persons. But are they divine persons? And what is a divine person anyway? See it's this kind of going around in circles that gets to me. It's like there are certain words trinitarians are forbidden from saying, even when they are the most logical, rational words in the world. To say that the Father, Son and Holy ghosts are distinct "persons" is one thing. To omit the word "divine" from the phrase is misleading. To include the word divine (i.e. "divine persons") but sidestep the question of whether "divine person" is a synonym for "god" strikes me as totally disingenuous. And at that point, the conversation comes to a grinding halt because the forbidden verbiage comes into play. It just doesn't make sense to me.
I believe He is incomprehensible, too, but not quite to the degree you do. I believe God was a whole lot more comprehensible back in the days of the Apostles than He was when the creeds first described Him as incomprehensible and did their best to make Him so.
She sounds a lot like my mom who died at 96 1/2.
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cataway
Well-Known Member
no, I don't feel you do . I all ready know she feels no discomfort . tell us please when does she have to have a head covering ?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
The LDS full-time missionary force is now at 88,000 in 400 missions worldwide. They have not pulled back anywhere. They have come to realize, though, that (at least in certain areas) there are more effective ways of proselytizing than going door-to-door. They are absolutely still there, even though you may be less aware of their presence. (Oh, and by the way, they're not all American Mormons. It would not be at all unusual, for instance, to see a Mormon missionary from Guatemala serving his mission in Taiwan.)somebody or other said:
I'm not sure where you got this idea from, but it's inaccurate, too. At this point in time, there are many areas in which the missionaries don't need to work all that hard in looking for potential converts. Members of the Church are encouraged to look for missionary opportunities in all areas of their lives. Much of the work of Mormon missionaries today comes from referrals. Members of the Church have friends, family and co-workers ask them to send the missionaries their way so there is less blind tracting.
That's very doubtful. "Companions" (you always see missionaries traveling 2 by 2, right?) get split up and reassigned to new areas of the city they're working in or even to another town entirely every six weeks. I suspect that's what happened.
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Unification
Well-Known Member
I'm happy you can discern what's truly inside of me.
Unification
Well-Known Member
Unification never said any of that! Peace and blessings to you, Katzpur.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Sorry. I don't who said it then because that's how it came up when I clicked on "Reply." I'll go in and take out your name so there won't be any misunderstanding. Thanks for letting me know.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
See Katie, we do agree on something else, something pretty significant.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
And may I ask who has a hold on you? You appear to be as conditioned and manipulated as those you denigrate. Or are you not aware of this?
Does it not seem strange that you have no brotherhood and that you seem to be a lone prophet in the world? You disrespect and contradict the scriptures which were inspired by the very same spirit you claim inspires you....how does that work?
If God is not telling us that you are his prophet by some supernatural means, then you are just the lone unconvincing voice of nobody.
Well, the spirit in me is just as sorrowful for you and other deluded souls who think God "speaks" to them personally. Like I said, unless you can prove that you alone have the guidance of the holy spirit with some kind of proof, then what are your words worth? Jesus himself as the son of God would not have convinced anyone without the power of the holy spirit.....even God knew that.....have you healed or resurrected anyone lately? Any booming voices from heaven saying "this is my prophet...listen to him"?
C'mon man, you are more brainwashed than we would ever know how to be. Did you ever think that it might be the wrong spirit trying to direct you?
Would you even know if the "angel of light" was leading you down the wrong track, masquerading as the spirit of God? Would it even occur to you? It should. To the deceived, it is truth until its too late.
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Unification
Well-Known Member
And may I ask who has a hold on you? You appear to be as conditioned and manipulated as those you denigrate. Or are you not aware of this?
Does it not seem strange that you have no brotherhood and that you seem to be a lone prophet in the world? You disrespect and contradict the scriptures which were inspired by the very same spirit you claim inspires you....how does that work?
If God is not telling us that you are his prophet by some supernatural means, then you are just the lone unconvincing voice of nobody.
Well, the spirit in me is just as sorrowful for you and other deluded souls who think God "speaks" to them personally. Like I said, unless you can prove that you alone have the guidance of the holy spirit with some kind of proof, then what are your words worth? Jesus himself as the son of God would not have convinced anyone without the power of the holy spirit.....even God knew that.....have you healed or resurrected anyone lately? Any booming voices from heaven saying "this is my prophet...listen to him"?
C'mon man, you are more brainwashed that we would ever know how to be. Did you ever think that it might be the wrong spirit trying to direct you?
Would you even know if the "angel of light" was leading you down the wrong track, masquerading as the spirit of God? Would it even occur to you? It should. To the deceived, it is truth until its too late.
I forgive you for that bad fruit.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Just as you are trying to save me...I am trying to save you.....no bad fruit on my part unless you calling me brainwashed is bad fruit on your part.
Seriously, you cannot answer the most simple questions. You denigrate God's word and tell us that the Bible doesn't mean what it clearly says......because you say it means something entirely different. Why should we believe you?
If the son of God needed miracles to prove he was God's son....what has God given you to show us your own credentials? Why would we listen to someone like you, who is preaching a completely different Jesus to what the scriptures teach, without some proof that what you say is true?
You do understand that the world is full of very sick people who claim what you claim....give us some evidence other than your words, otherwise they are meaningless. Do you comprehend what I am saying?
Do you find yourself without a spiritual home, not belonging with any group of Christians anywhere? If you do, what is that telling you? Christians do not exist in isolation. They never have.
Please consider.....
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Sorry Kat, it's not intentional. I'm not trying to insult you. I thought we'd agreed that there is only one God and not three. Wouldn't it be blasphemy to say there are three? Is blasphemy too strong a word? If God says there are no gods besides me, shouldn't we believe that? Once again, it has to be a terms barrier, because when I wrote what I did, I honestly thought you would agree.
All I was looking for were the Bible verses you would use. No explanation would be necessary. I wasn't asking you to explain how you arrived at your conclusion. Bible verses would have sufficed. The Bible speaks for itself.
You never asked me the question of whether divine person was a synonym for god. You told me it bothered you that people sidestep that question, but you never asked the question to me directly. So let's see if I can answer your question.
Yes, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct, divine persons
Here's how Strongs defines divine.
2304 theíos (an adjective, derived from2316 /theós, "God") – divine, manifesting the characteristics of God's nature.
2304 /theíos ("divine nature") ties God's essence to His self-manifestation, permitting all people to know Him by observing His attributes.
Here's what the thesaurus says.
Main Entry: god
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: supernatural being worshipped by people
Synonyms: Absolute Being, All Knowing, All Powerful, Allah, Almighty, Creator, Divine Being, Father, God, Holy Spirit, Infinite Spirit, Jah, Jehovah, King of Kings, Lord, Maker, Yahweh, daemon, deity, demigod, demon, divinity, holiness, idol, master, numen, omnipotent, power, prime mover, providence, soul, spirit, totem, tutelary, universal life force, world spirit
Main Entry: divine
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: godlike, perfect
Synonyms: all-powerful, almighty, ambrosial, angelic, anointed, beatific, beautiful, blissful, celestial, consecrated, deific, deistic, eternal, exalted, excellent, glorious, godly, hallowed, heavenly, holy, immaculate, magnificent, marvelous, mystical, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, rapturous, religious, sacramental, sacred, sacrosanct, sanctified, spiritual, splendid, superhuman, superlative, supernatural, supreme, theistic, transcendent, transcendental, transmundane, unearthly, wonderful
What words are trinitarians forbidden to use?
How is leaving the word "divine" out of the phrase "distinct persons" misleading? Are you sure it's intentional? I can tell you that from my perspective, I never gave it a thought. I just assumed you would know that when I say distinct persons, you would know without my having to say it that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are divine.
It's possible that the reason people sidestep your question is because they don't see the point of it. They have no idea where you're going with it or what your purpose is for asking. They may think you are setting a trap for them. I don't know. Why don't you explain?
Is "divine persons" a synonym for god? No, I don't think so, at least it's not for me. However, according to the thesaurus, divinity is a synonym for god, and you can see the synonyms for divine.
Satan, in the Bible, is called the god of this world. I could not substitue "divine person" for god when applying it to Satan.
Honestly, it all comes down to how it is applied.
I see "divine persons" as a way to describe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't see it as a substitute for the word god.
Again, nuances of a word. Much depends on how it's being used.
Okay. I tried. Not saying I'm right. I'm sure there are many angles to this which I hadn't thought of. Now it's your turn. Tell me how you see it.
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katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Yes, we sure do! And I believe we put up a pretty good argument against those who said otherwise.
Unification
Well-Known Member
Just as you are trying to save me...I am trying to save you.....no bad fruit on my part unless you calling me brainwashed is bad fruit on your part.
Seriously, you cannot answer the most simple questions. You denigrate God's word and tell us that the Bible doesn't mean what it clearly says......because you say it means something entirely different. Why should we believe you?
If the son of God needed miracles to prove he was God's son....what has God given you to show us your own credentials? Why would we listen to someone like you, who is preaching a completely different Jesus to what the scriptures teach, without some proof that what you say is true?
You do understand that the world is full of very sick people who claim what you claim....give us some evidence other than your words, otherwise they are meaningless. Do you comprehend what I am saying?
Do you find yourself without a spiritual home, not belonging with any group of Christians anywhere? If you do, what is that telling you? Christians do not exist in isolation. They never have.
Please consider.....
1Corinthians 2:7,
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom (mysteries of God written by the Spirit of God... Yet they are still being interpreted literally by wisdom of humans.)
Matthew 13:34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them (Do you know what a parable means?)
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (Literal and carnal interpretation of scripture kills but the Spirit teaches the spirit behind the scripture and gives life.)
Galatians 4:24
Which things are an allegory(what is an allegory?)
Matthew 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.(ye do err, taking scriptures literally and carnally, just as the religious Pharisees who knew the entire Hebrew Scriptures by heart practically yet got them nowhere.)
Ezekiel20:49
Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?
Proverbs 1:5-6
A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings. (What is a proverb and dark saying?)
Proverbs25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. (concealed from the literal and natural minded and need searched out by the spiritual.)
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one IN Christ Jesus. (You say I'm in isolation, yet everywhere around me, every human I see is a child of God. There is neither male nor female... That's strange, your religion places females on a lower unbalanced scale.)
Deuteronomy 25:11-14
When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:
Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.
Thou shalt not have in thy bag divers weights, a great and a small.
Thou shalt not have in thine house(body/heart) divers measures, a great and a small. (What does this all mean? Is this a God of love? What lack of respect your God has for females yet there is no respect of persons with God... What does this mean? When mankind(souls) strive (argue) with one another and the wife(heart) of the human has it in them to deliver and resolve to force, he becomes separated from God(hand cut off not literal, but the 2 hands are no longer whole. The 2 are no longer one flesh... This would be divorce in scripture. The spirit/body and soul/heart are no longer joined to God.) Nothing in the laws have changed... The literal and natural man just can't understand spiritual discernment.
Romans 2:11
For there is no respect of persons with God. (Why do I see oppression of people everywhere? Why is the girl below the guy?)
Malachi 1:8
And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the Lord of hosts.
(Jesus's miracles.... Healing the blind, lame, and sick... Was he healing literal animals or sinners? The miracles were healing sinners separated from God... They were supposed to be offering God a prudent wife(spotless and stainless body/heart/mind. The offering was supposed to be of the pure and inner clean man, not the carnal, beastly nature of man.)
Define repentance... A change of what? Is the heart within, is the mind within? Or are they in your midst? Where are they changed and how so? Within or externally?
It is clear that Jesus taught a gospel of within, inner faith, the inner/spiritual man. The physical, literal, and outward man, and religion he shunned.
Where does the transformation of a human occur? Within or in their midst? What does it mean to need a savior? Savior from what? Does that savior conquer and reign within a human or do we save ourselves within? Or are we sprinkled with fairy dust externally for cleansing?
Ephesians 5:21-32King James Version (KJV)
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church(body) is subject unto Christ(spirit), so let the wives(body/heart) be to their own husbands(spirit/soul) in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (BODY/heart cleansed- remind you of a flood perhaps?)
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.(BODY sin free)
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
(Himself, his own flesh, his own body)
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
A GREAT MYSTERY OF GOD, wow yet I disrespect the word of God written by spirit and apply it to my earthly life instead... Sounds like someone else. For which sounds more like God? For a female to be in subjection to a male or for the body to be in subjection to the Spirit?)
1 Corinthians 11:3-16
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man(soul/spirit)praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.(veiled... Led by mind and not Spirit)
5 But every woman(heart/body)that prayeth or prophesieth with her head(mind)uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
(Clearly your a bible scholar, read the Nazarite vow with the hair)
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman(heart/body)is the glory of the man(soul/spirit.)
8 For the man(spirit/soul)is not of the woman(body/heart) but the woman of the man.
(Body made for Spirit, (heart made for soul)
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
(Covered and led by Spirit)
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, IN THE LORD.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
(Even going away from spiritual and going to judgment naturally, a blind and natural man can even understand.)
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. (Your churches have such custom... All of the males teach veiled of the carnal mind and not led by the Spirit, and discriminate females.)
You say I'm in isolation yet I see humans' all around me, and because I left apostate junk and have allowed the Lord to direct my life and lead me to true followers, I'm in isolation? Besides, if it's I and God vs the world, I'd take that. Same as the prophets, then against the world... Prophets trying to teach spiritual and inner man things and murdered, no different here.
For which is easier and makes more sense of God... Even the natural man can perceive this... To transform an individual within, save a soul and human... or to come and destroy humans' and conquer physically? What were the heritage Jews looking for? A conquering Messiah... What are you looking for, a conquering Messiah. The Lord comes internally and spiritually, not physically. All these folks you've been teaching to wait on the Lord and watch for him, over thousands of years... you all are missing true freedom and life and salvation, the Lord has already come in my life. He comes within. Blind lead the blind. Stiff necked.
You will die in vain, with all of your labor in vain.
Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory
Disrespecting the Word is taking it naturally and literally... And worse yet, teaching others the same way. The writings of the Spirit of God being interpreted by the natural man seeing things literally, outward, and vain is disrespect and an abomination to God.
If it's not truth for the entire world of humans' it's not of God. If it's not in love or equality it's not of God. If it's fear, it's not of God. If it demeans a human below another in any way, it's not of God.
This could go back and forth forever, one of us is inner and spiritual... The other is natural and literal and carnal. One of us sees things spiritually, the other sees things physically.
For which do you prefer would be more beneficial to a human:
1. To shut off all means of everything externally of the mind and meditate on the Lord and let the Lord speak and teach spiritual things.
2. To let your own mind teach, let other minds of mankind teach doctrines and traditions.
For someone who claims to love God with all their heart, mind, and soul.. (Which are all WITHIN by the way) ... It does not show. Rotten seeds of fruit are within.
Ecclesiastes3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-11King James Version (KJV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,(repentance) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (the Lord will not come until you are naked, exposed to the sin revealed to you.)
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (Yourself is currently exalted)
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (Your mind is in the way of the Lord revealing Himself)
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.(take your carnal and conditioned mind out of the way and your ego and pride and be brought humbled and low.)
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, (you-the beast within)whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(The Lord coming within, revelation of Christ, conquering and destroying the sin within, saving your soul... Bright morning star resurrecting in heart)9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan (carnal mind/ego)with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
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Unification
Well-Known Member
Just as you are trying to save me...I am trying to save you.....no bad fruit on my part unless you calling me brainwashed is bad fruit on your part.
Seriously, you cannot answer the most simple questions. You denigrate God's word and tell us that the Bible doesn't mean what it clearly says......because you say it means something entirely different. Why should we believe you?
If the son of God needed miracles to prove he was God's son....what has God given you to show us your own credentials? Why would we listen to someone like you, who is preaching a completely different Jesus to what the scriptures teach, without some proof that what you say is true?
You do understand that the world is full of very sick people who claim what you claim....give us some evidence other than your words, otherwise they are meaningless. Do you comprehend what I am saying?
Do you find yourself without a spiritual home, not belonging with any group of Christians anywhere? If you do, what is that telling you? Christians do not exist in isolation. They never have.
Please consider.....
In your literal and carnal interpretations of an evil God .. You see the killing of children and destroying countries, murder. In the eyes of a spiritual man, he sees the Lord conquering and destroying the kingdoms of sin we create inside of us.
Yet, after God destroys all of this, there is mention of the heart, and the pride, and conceit, and haughty looks being brought low.... Imagine that.
In your literal and carnal eyes you see a Brutal God needing humans to cut up and shred animals and flinging their guts and blood everywhere. Common sense to even the natural will reveal that an Almighty God does not need animal blood to cleanse, even temporarily, humans' and this is sickening. The altar to God of every human is built internally. The sacrifice of the human's beastly and carnal, fleshly ways. In Isaiah, God clearly reveals its an abomination to kill literal animals and asks, who told you to do this?
You see fruit growing in the literal earth. I see fruit growing in the body.
You see literal temples and literal houses and literal beds and literal holy land. I see the temple built within, the house and bed as the body. I see the human holy, you see literal land holy.
You see a God externally. I see God inside of me.
You see a literal devil and Satan destroying people. I see mankind destroying and devouring themselves and each other.
I see Christ teaching me, sanctifying me because He is inside of me, you see something external and are still waiting on something external.
I hold myself accountable, and am thankful for the destruction of my mind, and being punished, disciplined, humbled... And pray always to bring me lower and the Lord increasing within me. You exalt yourself, are full of conceit of a puffed up mind, and you couldn't discern at this point if you're suffering righteously or if you're trying to be taught a lesson and spoken to.
The problem with religion is everyone thinks they are filled with the Holy Spirit/Ghost... When they are not. They think they have eternal life before finding the truth about themselves and of the Lord. Need the truth before having the life. Not opposite. I can give numerous scriptures of the Lord cleansing people in Matthew and in the "gospel" accounts only for that human to go back to their old house(body) of sin and run to mankind and be corrupted by mankind doctrine rather than sticking with God. Confessing Jesus with your mouth means nothing. Hitler and millions of others have so too.
There is nothing wrong with examining oneself and holding oneself accountable or thinking they have the Lord when they don't, this isn't anything to be ashamed of. Repent and seek properly. Don't die in vain.
One foot in a church building and one foot in the world. (Both are vain anyhow.) Then they have the man doctrine of a murder, Calvin... Once saved always saved. Evil lies. One thinks that they are saved when they're not.
One argues over the sabbath day, if it's Saturday or Sunday. This is irrelevant. The sabbath day is not a literal day, it's when one finds rest on the Lord, every day is rest in the Lord. There is nothing holy about literal days of the week.
Why do I use the "archaic" bible of King James? Because it's closest to the originals. Every bible has the touch of man and additions that don't belong. The further they are translated and changed.... And altered to suit mankinds particular beliefs and man doctrine... The more they become further from the truth. No one needs a bible anyhow. It's a book. God lives in us. His words should all be instilled and scribed in our hearts and minds and souls. "It is written" .... Law of God written IN the heart.
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Unification
Well-Known Member
Just as you are trying to save me...I am trying to save you.....no bad fruit on my part unless you calling me brainwashed is bad fruit on your part.
Seriously, you cannot answer the most simple questions. You denigrate God's word and tell us that the Bible doesn't mean what it clearly says......because you say it means something entirely different. Why should we believe you?
If the son of God needed miracles to prove he was God's son....what has God given you to show us your own credentials? Why would we listen to someone like you, who is preaching a completely different Jesus to what the scriptures teach, without some proof that what you say is true?
You do understand that the world is full of very sick people who claim what you claim....give us some evidence other than your words, otherwise they are meaningless. Do you comprehend what I am saying?
Do you find yourself without a spiritual home, not belonging with any group of Christians anywhere? If you do, what is that telling you? Christians do not exist in isolation. They never have.
Please consider.....
Matthew 7:6-8
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
TRUTH
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
I guess you did not understand my question from post #1288. Let me repeat it again for the 2nd time. Who is the subject of John 1:14 and John 1:1 and Colossians 2:9 or the entire New Testament? In this case who is the subject of John 1:1?
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:1 En archë ën ho logos, kai ho logos ën pros ton theon, kai theos ën ho logos.
If we divide this verse into three clauses it would look like this:
1) In the beginning was the Word – En arche en ho logos
2) And the Word was with God – kai ho logos en pros ton theon
3) And the Word was God – kai theos en ho logos
In the first clause the word “was” or “en” in Greek is in the past tense. In Biblehub interliner the word “en/was” is in the imperfect tense. What is imperfect tense?
The imperfect expresses imperfective aspect and is normally found in statements about the past. The primary function of the imperfect tense is to convey imperfective (progressive) verbal aspect in narrative past-time contexts. "We were eating" would be expressed using the imperfect in Hellenistic Greek. IOW, “The imperfect tense describes a continuous action usually occurring in the past –William Mounce”
In the beginning was the Word. IOW, before the beginning in Genesis 1:1 the Word was in existence already with God [pros ton theon –clause 2] continuously as the imperfect tense “was/en” was suggesting.
In the 2nd clause, “and the Word was with God” “kai ho logos en pros ton theon”. The 2nd clause is self-explanatory. “And the Word was with the God –word for word in Greek to English”. IOW, before the beginning there was a distinction between “the Word” and “the God” [REMEMBER THIS WHEN YOU READ THE 3RD CLAUSE] or we read two personal beings in existence already before the beginning as God, side by side, as John 1:18 was suggesting.
The 3rd clause is the critical part of John 1:1.
Make up your mind which one is it, divine or a god? If the right translation is “divine” then John could have used theios instead of theos, but he did not, did he? So, on that translation alone it proves that you are in error already.
Remember I asked you who the subject is in John 1:1 -read post #1288.
The one with the definite article, i.e., “the Word/ho logos” is the subject.
The word order in Greek should read “And God was the Word”. In English translation it should read “And the Word was God”
You asked why there is no definite article in front of the word “God” to prove that the Word is really God and not an “a god” or “divine”.
Let’s for example place a DA before God, then it should read like this in the 3d clause, “And the Word was the God”, meaning the Word is the God or the Father is the same as the Son and not two personal beings as stated in the 2nd clause. That’s Sabellianism.
If that is the case then we would have a problem with clause #2 where it explicitly says “And the Word was with the God” meaning “the Word” and “the God” are two personal beings existing already before the beginning.
So, by not inserting a definite article before God, in the 3rd clause, does not literally means the Lord Jesus was an “a god”.
On the hand, inserting an “a” before God literally means you people are adulterating the very Word of God.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
No issues with clause 1 and 2. As I mentioned before, there will be no concord regarding clause 3. Either "the Word is God" or "the Word is divine/a god" is the accurate translation of John 1:1c.
A difference in how that clause is written changes our understanding of John 1:14.
We both expressed/quoted supporting arguments as to why one translation or the other is "accurate." There really is nothing more to say regarding the matter besides slinging mud.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
“No issues with clause 1 and 2.”? Are you kidding me?
What is it that you cannot understand in the 3rd clause? The 3rd clause is the conclusion of the premises in clauses 1 and 2. If you cannot conclude that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, and not an “a god, or divine”, in the 3rd clause then you did not base your understanding in clauses 1 and 2 which is the basis for understanding the 3rd clause. Do you understand this?