1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Can secularism be oppressive to any religious believer?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by F1fan, Aug 24, 2021.

  1. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    8,232
    Ratings:
    +7,388
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    On another discussion a member claimed that "secularism can be pretty opressive for true believers". There were some good responses but it off topic.

    The claim is problematic because it assumes "true believers" have an absolute truth that has an authority over all people and all governance. I suggest the the problem is 'true belief" in an absolute sense, given the believers are fallible thinkers.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. Meow Mix

    Meow Mix Chatte Féministe

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    11,375
    Ratings:
    +6,210
    Religion:
    Nontheist
    Ensuring you can’t bash people with your faith is the opposite of oppression, so this claim always bewilders me.
     
    • Like Like x 9
    • Winner Winner x 5
  3. Rawshak

    Rawshak Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2021
    Messages:
    178
    Ratings:
    +119
    Yes, I want to own slaves and secularism does not allow it. I would call myself a Christian tomorrow if I was allowed to own a slave.
     
    • Funny Funny x 6
  4. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Leaderless Animal

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    14,222
    Ratings:
    +13,641
    Religion:
    zen
    I'd settle for my own cake factory. Possibly run by slaves.
     
    • Funny Funny x 6
  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    35,671
    Ratings:
    +15,979
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    Which thread was that?
     
  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    35,671
    Ratings:
    +15,979
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    Secularism allows owning slaves. Humanism doesn't.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. Rawshak

    Rawshak Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2021
    Messages:
    178
    Ratings:
    +119
    Ok I guess I am not oppressed by secularism then, just humanism.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  8. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    8,232
    Ratings:
    +7,388
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    The one about the Taliban might be correct. It's now closed under review. Look at page 6.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    8,232
    Ratings:
    +7,388
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    How does secularism assume an authority to own people?

    Let's note the Bible condones slavery, and the Confederation of States were Southern Baptist using the authority of the Bible to justify owning black people kidnapped from Africa.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    7,178
    Ratings:
    +5,044
    Religion:
    ?
    I think @Brickjectivity was only getting at the idea that secularism in and of itself would not prohibit slavery. So, even given a "secular" society, it would not necessarily mean that slavery would be prohibited.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    14,020
    Ratings:
    +13,181
    Religion:
    none
    Secularism isn't a 'neutral' principle, it is a particular ideological stance that largely developed in modern Christian/post-Christian societies.

    It assumes a certain form of religion, and that this can and should exist in a sphere distinct from governance.

    That this is a culturally contingent concept is expressed by the Indian historian S. N. Balagangadhar who noted: “Christianity spreads in two ways, through conversion and through secularisation.”

    We can argue that secularism is good, but shouldn't forget that it asserting its own ideological truth just as religions are and is not simply a default or neutral position. Ultimately it is about one group's ideological preferences defeating other group's and denying them legitimacy.
     
    #11 Augustus, Aug 24, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
    • Like Like x 3
  12. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,788
    Ratings:
    +3,084
    Religion:
    None
    That kind of statement pretty much always reflects a misunderstanding of the word "secularism".
     
  13. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2021
    Messages:
    8,232
    Ratings:
    +7,388
    Religion:
    Buddhist
    Isn't is fair to define secular as "no religious influence"?
     
  14. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2015
    Messages:
    7,178
    Ratings:
    +5,044
    Religion:
    ?
    But surely you recognize that the idea of "secularization" is more broadly applicable in any situation where a particular religious belief was being wielded within governance, and that begins to fall to calls for less biased viewpoints being at the helm of said governance? Meaning... even if the word has its roots in the "Christian-principles" versus "variously-sourced-principals" debate, it isn't just sitting there anymore.

    And what is the ideology in play within the idea of "Secularism?" I mean besides the idea that religious conviction not be used as the basis of governance? Is there anything else that makes up an "ideology" of secularism? Honestly... it sounds a lot like the ongoing misunderstanding of "atheism" and all that term entails in totality. All I believe you can know for certain with only hearing that a society is "secular" is that this society doesn't allow religious articles to decide state-wide governance. Just as all you can know about an person upon hearing only that they are atheist is that they do not believe in deities.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2013
    Messages:
    12,840
    Ratings:
    +8,572
    Religion:
    Love, Light, and Life
    I suppose that is true. Though one could argue it is a neutral position, in that it tries to balance or moderate between the competing views. I don't think it can be said to be dominating in the way a theocracy might, because it allows for other views to exist as opposed to trying to oppress them, the way a religious authority might, damning people, throwing them out of the church, and so forth.

    I don't take the idea of being against intolerance of others, as dominating the show with your views. Telling others they cannot oppress others, is not oppressing them. It's moderating them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,950
    Ratings:
    +1,624
    Religion:
    Areligious Christian
    I agree with you, the claim makes no sense.

    I came to this conclusion:
    People who believe falsities see everything upside down.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  17. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    35,671
    Ratings:
    +15,979
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    Secularism just has nothing to do with it ethics at all. Humanism is an ethical framework. You can be pro-slave state secularist, but you can't be a pro-slave humanist. You can be a secular humanist or you can be a secular non-humanist.

    That is a misunderstanding. Justification of slavery is extra-biblical mixed with cherry picking. It misconstrues any authoritative resource in order to support the very, very lucrative trade of slaves. The slave trade claims support from anything it can and uses half brained arguments of many kinds and will cherry pick from any resource to misconstrue facts, will lobby the government, will pressure individuals, will bribe officials and do whatever it takes.

    The slave trade in the USA is gradually undermined because of people who care, many of whom are bible students and enthusiasts and who use the bible's many scriptures to argue against slavery. It certainly is not the bible which creates and causes the slave trade.
     
  18. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2004
    Messages:
    29,947
    Ratings:
    +16,361
    Religion:
    Vedanta (reform)
    Secularism doesn't involve a particular legal or moral code, it just lacks divine edicts. It's law based on mundane human interests.
    This, of course, can be extremely annoying to those who organize their lives according to divine command or a religious propriety.
     
    #18 Valjean, Aug 24, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  19. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    14,020
    Ratings:
    +13,181
    Religion:
    none
    That's a reasonable definition, but it still doesn't make it a neutral position.

    Saying that society should be run on a principle of 'no religious influence' is an ideological position that denies the legitimacy of religious influence in governance.

    This does not reflect the vast majority of societies in human history, and is a culturally contingent value preference.

    I'm all for secularism, but recognise this as part of my ideological preferences.

    Do you see it as a neutral position?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  20. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    21,556
    Ratings:
    +11,438
    Religion:
    Scientism
    Secularism just separates the church from the state. Preventing laws based on religious idealism. Could the law of the law be oppressive to a particular religious?
    Possibly. However the law can't specifically target a religion. So maybe you wouldn't be able to sacrifice animals for a religious ritual but no one else would either.

    So you are free to follow your religious beliefs except where they transgress governmental enforced laws.
     
    • Like Like x 2
Loading...