Can good people go to hell?

[Demonslayer]

There are so many examples. One I know personally of a young woman who had Leukemia. She was so bad the family was brought in from other states. We continued to pray for her despite her grave condition. Over the next few days she was looking a little better. They took blood samples and it showed improvement. She is now completely healed and the doctors just dont know what to say.

The doctors don't know what to say? Leukemia survival rates are like 60%-70%, whether you pray for the person or not.

Do you know what anecdotal evidence is?

 

[Demonslayer]

So when you say "It does come off as insulting when people use medical ailments they recovered from as an argument for the proof of their faith." I disagree.

Imagine your child is in a school bus with 29 other children that goes off the side of a cliff. You get to the bottom to find 29 of the children have died a horrible death, including your child. The mother of the one child who survives starts yelling "It's a miracle, God saved my son!"

This is what your claims of God's healing do to others who weren't healed.

 

[dianaiad]

It's entirely possible, although I've seen some theists use that form of "logic." I once was told with all sincerity that a beautiful sunset was proof of God's existence.

I do not think it is proof of His existence. I DO think it's evidence of His sense of beauty.

 

[Rapture Era]

The doctors don't know what to say? Leukemia survival rates are like 60%-70%, whether you pray for the person or not.

Do you know what anecdotal evidence is?

According to the doctors and her physical condition, she was in the 30% that wasnt going to survive it was really bad. So you tell me.

 

[dianaiad]

My wife's mother died of cancer. Did God not love her enough? Why did God choose to heal your cancer, while allowing over a half a million others to die from cancer each year?

How does God choose which people he cures and which people he lets die?

Also, when it comes to God healing cancer, why does God heal about 99% of those with prostate cancer, but only about 3% of those with gallbladder cancer?

We will all die of something, Demonslayer. Physical death is caused by the body failing in some way. Your mother in law did not die because God did not love her enough. That's just the way her body stopped working. Bitterness at this isn't going to help you, or your wife....nor would it have helped your mother in law.

And yeah, the above statement sounds pretty heartless, I suppose, except for one thing. I have Multiple Myeloma, which is cancer of the bone marrow and it is not curable. period--unless one has an identical twin with healthy bone marrow. I don't.

Unless I get hit by a semi in the morning, that IS how I'm going to die, and while it won't be within the next few months...or even, if all goes very well, within the next couple of years, that's how I'm going to go.

"Faith,' in a lot of ways, is THE most mis-defined word there is. Almost everybody I talk to uses 'faith' and 'belief' interchangeably, but they are not. The bible talks about the difference between the two concepts...I don't know whether the Quran does or any other religious text. Belief...is belief. "Faith," is the trust it takes to actually act upon that belief. You know...'works,' as in 'faith without works is dead," and "even the devils believe, and tremble.." In other words, a closer synonym to 'faith' would be 'trust,' rather than 'belief.' Faith is what you DO about that belief.

....and if something wonderful happens, and one beats cancer, and one wishes to give the glory to God, what's the problem with that? I mean, if He would cure ME, it would be a verifiable miracle, but hey; I"m OK with it whatever.

 

[Rapture Era]

Imagine your child is in a school bus with 29 other children that goes off the side of a cliff. You get to the bottom to find 29 of the children have died a horrible death, including your child. The mother of the one child who survives starts yelling "It's a miracle, God saved my son!"
This is what your claims of God's healing do to others who weren't healed.

Listen, some are spared some are not. Its not a matter of healing. I would be crushed if my child was killed! But here is the difference, I know that this life isnt all there is and the comfort would come knowing I will see him again! For those that dont trust in Jesus for their eternal salvation have no hope at all. They certainly will not see their loved ones again even if their loved ones are in heaven. And I would say YES! It is a miracle your son was saved! Why was one saved and the other 29 lost? I dont know!
When you put your trust in God that when you die, and her we go again, no one knows who or when, that you have your eternity in heaven locked in. Do you know that when you die you will be in heaven? If so, what do you base your trust in?

 

[dianaiad]

Therefore the bake was made either by you or by your niece.

My point, precisely. The cake COULD have been made by someone else, and is therefore not proof that I exist to make it.
Since there are other theories out there regarding the appearance (evolution?) of man, our existence cannot be PROOF that God exists.

Why do I get the feeling that I'm pounding on an empty drum?

 

[Rapture Era]

We will all die of something, Demonslayer. Physical death is caused by the body failing in some way. Your mother in law did not die because God did not love her enough. That's just the way her body stopped working. Bitterness at this isn't going to help you, or your wife....nor would it have helped your mother in law.

And yeah, the above statement sounds pretty heartless, I suppose, except for one thing. I have Multiple Myeloma, which is cancer of the bone marrow and it is not curable. period--unless one has an identical twin with healthy bone marrow. I don't.

Unless I get hit by a semi in the morning, that IS how I'm going to die, and while it won't be within the next few months...or even, if all goes very well, within the next couple of years, that's how I'm going to go.

"Faith,' in a lot of ways, is THE most mis-defined word there is. Almost everybody I talk to uses 'faith' and 'belief' interchangeably, but they are not. The bible talks about the difference between the two concepts...I don't know whether the Quran does or any other religious text. Belief...is belief. "Faith," is the trust it takes to actually act upon that belief. You know...'works,' as in 'faith without works is dead," and "even the devils believe, and tremble.." In other words, a closer synonym to 'faith' would be 'trust,' rather than 'belief.' Faith is what you DO about that belief.

....and if something wonderful happens, and one beats cancer, and one wishes to give the glory to God, what's the problem with that? I mean, if He would cure ME, it would be a verifiable miracle, but hey; I"m OK with it whatever.

Excellent!

 

[Demonslayer]

Listen, some are spared some are not. Its not a matter of healing.

Then why claim you were healed?

 

[Rapture Era]

Then why claim you were healed?

We are talking about two different things. In your hypothetical bus story, that is a miracle from death, not a healing. When someone is gravely sick, or has a disease or a disease that can cause death, something that your body cannot heal on its own naturally, that is healing. Whether God uses doctors or technology to heal you or He does it Himself when those things dont work, or He just chooses to, its still healing. So I ask again, Do you know that when you die you will be in heaven? Or do you not care.

 

[viole]

According to the doctors and her physical condition, she was in the 30% that wasnt going to survive it was really bad. So you tell me.

Internal medicine miracles are never convincing. You never know what goes inside our bodies or how good/bad the doctors diagnosed. They are imperfect humans, after all.

One of my friends lost an arm at work. He is a devout Christian praying all the time to get his arm back. But it does not seem to work, for some reason. I told him he is losing his time, obviously, but he mentions to me all the time that Scriptures say that if you have at least of grain of faith, you can achieve everything, whatever that means.

Here is your real opportunity to baffle everyone. Can you pray so that his arm grows back?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Rapture Era]

Internal medicine miracles are never convincing. You never know what goes inside our bodies or how good/bad the doctors diagnosed. They are imperfect humans, after all.

One of my friends lost an arm at work. He is a devout Christian praying all the time to get his arm back. But it does not seem to work, for some reason. I told him he is losing his time, obviously, but he mentions to me all the time that Scriptures say that if you have at least of grain of faith, you can achieve everything, whatever that means.

Here is your real opportunity to baffle everyone. Can you pray so that his arm grows back?

Ciao

- viole

Haaahaaa! Yeah that would somethin wouldnt it?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Thank you for being honest. It is in the written record of scripture that Jesus heal the sick, people who had leprosy, a horrible disease, He healed those who were crippled all their life. A woman who was bleeding for 12 years was healed just by touching His garment (because she had great faith in who He was) and this happened right in front of crowds of people but most importantly, a Jewish
synagogue leader who's 12 year old daughter was sick and dyeing. He ran to Jesus and threw himself at Jesus' feet begging Him to come and heal his daughter. But the womans healing held Jesus up and in the mean time this mans daughter died. The people told him not to bother Jesus because she was dead. The man could have been very angry at Jesus for spending time with this woman instead of healing his daughter, but Jesus told the man dont worry she is just sleeping she will live, just have faith. What happened with the woman happened right in front of this man to show him how powerful faith is. All the people were laughing at Jesus because the girl was not sleeping from their perspective, she was dead! So Jesus goes to the house and the crowds followed. Jesus only let his three disciples and the parents in the house because they were the only ones who had faith, even just a little faith that He would something miraculous. He held the girls hand and "said stand up little girl" and her spirit came back to her and she stood up and Jesus told her parents to give her something to eat. Everyone was blown away at what just happened. Mary and Martha had a brother Lazarus. Same kind of thing. They called for Jesus to come and heal their sick brother. He was two days journey away but He took 4 days to come. By the time He got there Lazarus had died and was in the tomb for days. Mary and Martha were really mad because they figured that if Jesus would have gotten there on time their brother would have lived. But Jesus let Lazarus die on purpose so that they would see He has power over death. He stands by the tomb and calls Lazarus out, and here he comes. Now Lazarus eventually died again but the point is, Jesus can heal anything and He can overcome death because He is God. 1989, Don Piper is in a horrible car crash. He is pronounced dead at the scene. Hes dead for an hour and a half. You know what happens to the brain after 4 minutes without oxygen right? Well, long story short, a fellow pastor who rolled up on the scene was led to pray for him. The pastor is thinking, what good is it going to do to pray for this guy, hes already dead! But God placed it on his heart to do it anyway. He doesnt even know what to pray so he starts singing a song he knows from church. All of a sudden Don comes back to life and and scares this guy out of his socks! He runs back to tell the last of the paramedics who were waiting on the coroner to arrive that this guy is alive and they laughed at him. He convinces them to just come and take his pulse one more time. They do just appease him and they get a pulse! Everything goes into high gear. I spoke to Don Piper personally about his story about 13 years after the event. His mind was perfect. Its medically impossible. There are so many examples. One I know personally of a young woman who had Leukemia. She was so bad the family was brought in from other states. We continued to pray for her despite her grave condition. Over the next few days she was looking a little better. They took blood samples and it showed improvement. She is now completely healed and the doctors just dont know what to say. So when you say "It does come off as insulting when people use medical ailments they recovered from as an argument for the proof of their faith." I disagree. The examples above are all about faith. Jesus Himself said that without faith you cannot please God. Blessed are those that believe and donot see. You said that you believe in a supreme being. What is your relationship with this being? Who is He to you?

I don't take Biblical stories literally. No, I don't believe Jesus went around bringing corpses back to life. I'm not interested in literalism. I'm interested in the deeper meanings of those stories. No, I don't think God goes around doing magic tricks.

 

[viole]

Haaahaaa! Yeah that would somethin wouldnt it?

Why? Is curing cancer easier for God than growing up a new limb?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Demonslayer]

According to the doctors and her physical condition, she was in the 30% that wasnt going to survive it was really bad. So you tell me.

I tell you that if I had a nickel for everyone who "was supposed to die" who then recovered, I'd be a very rich man.

Look, there have been studies upon studies showing prayer has no effect on recovery from a disease. If you pray for 1000 gall bladder cancer patients, only about 20 will survive 5 years. If you don't pray for 1000 gall bladder cancer patients, the same 20 will survive the 5 years. It's been shown, prayers do nothing to the rate of survival. Your anecdotal evidence aside.

I mean really, you don't think it's odd that God answers healing prayers readily for easily curable diseases, and hardly ever answers prayers for more deadly diseases?

 

[Demonslayer]

Haaahaaa! Yeah that would somethin wouldnt it?

But what's funny about it? If you believe God removes cancer from people on a regular basis, why not put an arm back?

It just so happens God only heals the things we can't prove God really healed?

 

[Demonslayer]

One of my friends lost an arm at work. He is a devout Christian praying all the time to get his arm back. But it does not seem to work, for some reason. I told him he is losing his time, obviously, but he mentions to me all the time that Scriptures say that if you have at least of grain of faith, you can achieve everything, whatever that means.

And yet God answers about 98% of people who pray to be healed of prostate cancer.

God says no to 100% of amputees, but only no to 2% of prostate cancer patients.

That wacky God!

 

[viole]

But what's funny about it? If you believe God removes cancer from people on a regular basis, why not put an arm back?

It just so happens God only heals the things we can't prove God really healed?

It must have something to do with free will. If a miracle is reaaaally a miracle, then He would betray His existence and mess up with our free will to choose Him or not.

Ergo, all miracles are such that they could be no miracles at all.

Go figure

Ciao

- viole

 

[Demonslayer]

In your hypothetical bus story, that is a miracle from death, not a healing.

What's a miracle is that anyone would call 29 kids dying in a bus crash a "miracle." Wouldn't it be more of a miracle if all 30 survived? Or if the bus never went off the cliff in the first place? Or if, on the way down, God created an enormous trampoline and stuffed the bus full of pillows before impact?

Instead 29 kids dying and one surviving is "a miracle."

 

[Demonslayer]

So I ask again, Do you know that when you die you will be in heaven?

No, I don't believe in a cosmic paradise kingdom.

All the other stuff you said about "if I put my trust in God" I'll make it to Heaven assumes you've chosen the correct God to worship. If any of the hundreds of thousands of other Gods that have been worshipped throughout the ages are the real one, you're just as damned as me.

What do you suppose the chances are that, of the thousands of Gods that have existed over the ages, long before humans ever conceived of Yahweh/Jesus, that the one you were taught about as a child is the correct one? Tiny. There is a very, very small chance that 1) there is a God and 2) that you picked the right one to worship if there is one to begin with. Your chance of being saved is barely greater than mine, way less than one tenth of one percent

Do you put your trust in Horus, just in case?