Can God forgive?

[firedragon]

This is with an aim of getting a little more information and/or reasoning. It triggered due to a recent discussion between two apologists, one christian, and the other muslim. The christian apologist reasoned that the Islamic "Allah" is not powerful enough to become a man. Saying God does not become a man is limiting God. So he says.

A question arose from that.

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God? Especially considering God who in the book of Ezekiel has all the power to forgive upon simple repentance and change of ways etc etc, while suddenly God has become so powerless and limited that God the Son has to become a man, born to a woman, work as a handy man, get beaten and killed on a cross by the romans in order to do what he was capable of doing earlier anyway?

Is that not limiting God? Is that not making him powerless?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is what man is prone to do, limit God to their understanding.

Regards Tony

 

[Spirit of Light]

This is with an aim of getting a little more information and/or reasoning. It triggered due to a recent discussion between two apologists, one christian, and the other muslim. The christian apologist reasoned that the Islamic "Allah" is not powerful enough to become a man. Saying God does not become a man is limiting God. So he says.

A question arose from that.

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God? Especially considering God who in the book of Ezekiel has all the power to forgive upon simple repentance and change of ways etc etc, while suddenly God has become so powerless and limited that God the Son has to become a man, born to a woman, work as a handy man, get beaten and killed on a cross by the romans in order to do what he was capable of doing earlier anyway?

Is that not limiting God? Is that not making him powerless?

God is unlimided in my understanding, above all life in our universe. Unfortunatly some human beings use their ego to put them selvs above God (not you @firedragon ).

And yes God can forgive if we acknowledge our faults, and ask for forgivness

 

[blü 2]

This is with an aim of getting a little more information and/or reasoning. It triggered due to a recent discussion between two apologists, one christian, and the other muslim. The christian apologist reasoned that the Islamic "Allah" is not powerful enough to become a man.

Does the Qur'an give any support to this claim? Or is it a case of 'didn't' rather than 'couldn't'?

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God? Especially considering God who in the book of Ezekiel has all the power to forgive upon simple repentance and change of ways etc etc, while suddenly God has become so powerless and limited that God the Son has to become a man, born to a woman, work as a handy man, get beaten and killed on a cross by the romans in order to do what he was capable of doing earlier anyway?

Is that not limiting God? Is that not making him powerless?

Isn't the answer that if God is said to be omnipotent, then God can do anything at all that [he] wants to (with a few logical exceptions that don't matter in this context)?

 

[danieldemol]

I'd like to point out to no one in particular that in this particular instance the common sense perspective happened to agree with the religion of the Muslim, and disagree with that of the Christian.

However this is not always guaranteed to be the case, as there are examples where Islam goes against common sense.

Just pointing this out for those who might unreasonably infer off this one particular instance that Islam is a common sense religion.

 

[firedragon]

Does the Qur'an give any support to this claim? Or is it a case of 'didn't' rather than 'couldn't'?
Isn't the answer that if God is said to be omnipotent, then God can do anything at all that [he] wants to (with a few logical exceptions that don't matter in this context)?

1. No there is no support in the Quran for that claim.

2. Yes. That’s the question.

Sorry. I am on the phone so I can’t quote your questions properly.

 

[firedragon]

I'd like to point out to no one in particular that in this particular instance the common sense perspective happened to agree with the religion of the Muslim, and disagree with that of the Christian.

However this is not always guaranteed to be the case, as there are examples where Islam goes against common sense.

Just pointing this out for those who might unreasonably infer off this one particular instance that Islam is a common sense religion.

I can see your need my friend. Why don’t you open a thread to discuss this irrelevant topic?

 

[Colt]

This is with an aim of getting a little more information and/or reasoning. It triggered due to a recent discussion between two apologists, one christian, and the other muslim. The christian apologist reasoned that the Islamic "Allah" is not powerful enough to become a man. Saying God does not become a man is limiting God. So he says.

A question arose from that.

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God? Especially considering God who in the book of Ezekiel has all the power to forgive upon simple repentance and change of ways etc etc, while suddenly God has become so powerless and limited that God the Son has to become a man, born to a woman, work as a handy man, get beaten and killed on a cross by the romans in order to do what he was capable of doing earlier anyway?

Is that not limiting God? Is that not making him powerless?

In the original, pre-cross Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, God was already a forgiving Father. That was the original "good news". In Judaism God is a national God and repentant sinners must go through the toll of proper sacrificial offerings and cleansing. . Jesus taught that God is a personal Father to each individual which we can approach directly.

Jesus didn't teach the atonement gospel. But after Jesus left things changed immediately. Human speculation and conjecture by sacrifice minded men started to think Jesus must have voluntarily gone to the cross to offer himself as a sin debt payment.

***There was a religion OF Jesus, Christianity became a religion ABOUT Jesus.

 

[rational experiences]

If everyone is human.....hu and man then we are equal.

Created to be equal.

Means we should be measured to be perfect. And we no longer are.

The hu..man then details by hu..man story why.

As we need no answers if there are no questions to ask.

If you ask why we are no longer a measure of perfection then you write and teach the the sis why.

The mother science maths claimed the measure as a measure. Which is first without change.

Then scientists used that measure and forced change.

Teaching against forced change was about changed measure and sacrificed life.

Natural X mass existed first owning no argument.

The state O one earth as it's entity creator formed it's own heavens.

To a man science O earth was a machine that reacted to release it's reaction...the heavens.

Which is a the sis. Isis mother science advice.

The sis said I symbolism for self thought about O God as intensity of magnetisation.

Isis gone.

The sis became the Sus.

Ie. Sus. The example of a teaching given to man being sacrificed by terms cross. God heart core attacked man.

+ Cross + addition. You cannot add onto perfection of God.
+ Seasons....change by gas reactions not the day.

Day remains constant.

To take the body off the cross+ becomes - removed. Minus.

DNA genetics genesis exited. Same as Moses God teaching.

Science could foretell earth reactive cause by studying science method and natural earth.
The teaching.

A hu...man taught about God whilst life body harmed is not a religion.

Religion is owned by followers not leaders.

 

[firedragon]

In the original, pre-cross Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, God was already a forgiving Father. That was the original "good news". In Judaism God is a national God and repentant sinners must go through the toll of proper sacrificial offerings and cleansing. . Jesus taught that God is a personal Father to each individual which we can approach directly.

Jesus didn't teach the atonement gospel. But after Jesus left things changed immediately. Human speculation and conjecture by sacrifice minded men started to think Jesus must have voluntarily gone to the cross to offer himself as a sin debt payment.

***There was a religion OF Jesus, Christianity became a religion ABOUT Jesus.

That does not answer any of the questions though. It gives more.

So God became powerless after Jesus where he had to get his son killed on the cross for atonement?

Nope. I did not get it.

 

[Colt]

That does not answer any of the questions though. It gives more.

So God became powerless after Jesus where he had to get his son killed on the cross for atonement?

Nope. I did not get it.

God has never been powerless. Jesus and the Father chose to go to the cross for different reasons other than "atonement".

*The resurrection proved life after death. It was the final and most spectacular of the miracles.

*The cross provided the Son with the "experience" of death that man is called to experience. We have a God who has experienced what he requires of us.

*Jesus spent his entire life on the cross of human experience while subject to the will of the Father.

 

[firedragon]

God has never been powerless. Jesus and the Father chose to go to the cross for different reasons other than "atonement".

*The resurrection proved life after death. It was the final and most spectacular of the miracles.

*The cross provided the Son with the "experience" of death that man is called to experience. We have a God who has experienced what he requires of us.

*Jesus spent his entire life on the cross of human experience while subject to the will of the Father.

God is so unknowledgeable about humans?

Anyway, the question is about the topic at hand. The other points that you say were achieved by this are topics of their own.

Bottomline is, God was weakened enough to not be able to provide atonement without dying himself.

 

[Batya]

This is with an aim of getting a little more information and/or reasoning. It triggered due to a recent discussion between two apologists, one christian, and the other muslim. The christian apologist reasoned that the Islamic "Allah" is not powerful enough to become a man. Saying God does not become a man is limiting God. So he says.

A question arose from that.

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God? Especially considering God who in the book of Ezekiel has all the power to forgive upon simple repentance and change of ways etc etc, while suddenly God has become so powerless and limited that God the Son has to become a man, born to a woman, work as a handy man, get beaten and killed on a cross by the romans in order to do what he was capable of doing earlier anyway?

Is that not limiting God? Is that not making him powerless?

Of course God can forgive sins, he always has. My view is that Yeshua did not die so much to forgive sins as for redemption and reconciliation. It was not due to powerlessness, rather it was done in accordance with many things written beforehand.

 

[firedragon]

Of course God can forgive sins, he always has. My view is that Yeshua did not die so much to forgive sins as for redemption and reconciliation. It was not due to powerlessness, rather it was done in accordance with many things written beforehand.

You dont believe that Jesus died to bring atonement. Thats interesting. You probably are fringe. Yet, I understand your response. Thanks.

 

[Colt]

God is so unknowledgeable about humans?

Anyway, the question is about the topic at hand. The other points that you say were achieved by this are topics of their own.

Bottomline is, God was weakened enough to not be able to provide atonement without dying himself.

You aren’t listening. Maybe you don't want the answer?! Jesus didn’t call his death an atonement.

God doesn’t need to provide atonement. God forgives and forgets the sincere repentant child.

 

[Colt]

Some in the Christian religion brought Pagan ideas about blood sacrifice into their new religion about Jesus.

 

[firedragon]

You aren’t listening. Maybe you don't want the answer?! Jesus didn’t call his death an atonement.

I never said Jesus didnt say this or that. I am speaking of the Christian Theology. There are a lot of things Jesus never said so that's a whole other topic altogether.

God doesn’t need to provide atonement. God forgives and forgets the sincere repentant child.

Great.

 

[firedragon]

Some in the Christian religion brought Pagan ideas about blood sacrifice into their new religion about Jesus.

Out of curiosity, how do you interpret the word hilastirion in Romans 3:5?

 

[Colt]

Out of curiosity, how do you interpret the word hilastirion in Romans 3:5?

Sin being deliberate disloyalty to deity, to repent is to restore right relations after a season of rebellion.

Specifically, we need only receive Gods forgiveness which has gone out before we ever thought to ask for it. In turn we forgive others which is when we experience forgiveness.

Propitiation is an idea born in the human EGO that thinks like an accountant, that an account must be squared up.

 

[Colt]

This is from my theology which I believe to be true:

"Righteousness implies that God is the source of the moral law of the universe. Truth exhibits God as a revealer, as a teacher. But love gives and craves affection, seeks understanding fellowship such as exists between parent and child. Righteousness may be the divine thought, but love is a father’s attitude. The erroneous supposition that the righteousness of God was irreconcilable with the selfless love of the heavenly Father, presupposed absence of unity in the nature of Deity and led directly to the elaboration of the atonement doctrine, which is a philosophic assault upon both the unity and the free-willness of God.

The affectionate heavenly Father, whose spirit indwells his children on earth, is not a divided personality—one of justice and one of mercy—neither does it require a mediator to secure the Father’s favor or forgiveness. Divine righteousness is not dominated by strict retributive justice; God as a father transcends God as a judge." UB 1955