Can a Buddhist believe in God?

[crossfire]

dear crosfire

did you read this ?

''There are infinite categories of teaching and countless are the ways to enter the vehicles. Explanations can involve a great many words and expressions. Unless we can take to heart the essence of the genuine meaning, then even committing many hundreds of thousands of volumes to memory will not decidedly bring benefit at the moment of death.....''


A Mirror Revealing the Crucial Points: Advice on the Ultimate Meaning

By Longchen Rabjam

Of course there are innumerable dhamma doors. Buddhism doesn't have the exclusive claim on enlightenment, either. That still doesn't invalidate Buddha's warnings regarding labeling any phenomena as eternal, self, or god as leading to suffering.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

If the 'Jewel In The Lotus' represents Brahman absolute, then a Buddhist can worship a God until such times as that is realised.

Well, this one does. lol

 

[Ekanta]

Some Mahayana also have people taking vows to delay their own enlightenment.

There might be a confusion here with enlightenment and final nirvana. In almost all variations of the bodhisattva vows one is to attain enlightenment in order to save others. In one its translated as you say, but I have a hard time believing its correctly translated or correctly interpreted. And the reason is obvious, how can you help others if you are in darkness yourself? If anyone can throw some light on this it would be nice.
Bodhisattva Vow, various versions - Buddha's world

Buddha's warnings regarding labeling any phenomena as eternal, self, or god as leading to suffering.

Yes any phenomena... but Buddha doesnt stop there:

"When permission was granted he [monk] spoke as follows:

The Buddha teaches that all conformations are transient, that all conformations are subject to sorrow, that all conformations are lacking a self. How then can there be Nirvana, a state of eternal bliss?"'

And the Blessed One, this connection, on that occasion, breathed forth this solemn utterance: "There is, O monks, a state where there is neither earth, nor water, nor heat, nor air; neither infinity of space nor infinity of consciousness, nor nothingness, nor perception nor non-perception; neither this world nor that world, neither sun nor moon. It is the uncreate. That O monks, I term neither coming nor going nor standing; neither death nor birth. It is without stability, without change; it is the eternal which never originates and never passes away. There is the end of sorrow.

"It is hard to realize the essential, the truth is not easily perceived; desire is mastered by him who knows, and to him who sees aright all things are naught. There is, O monks, an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed. Were there not, O monks, this unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated and unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed."
The Three Characteristics And The Uncreated

 

[crossfire]

There might be a confusion here with enlightenment and final nirvana. In almost all variations of the bodhisattva vows one is to attain enlightenment in order to save others. In one its translated as you say, but I have a hard time believing its correctly translated or correctly interpreted. And the reason is obvious, how can you help others if you are in darkness yourself? If anyone can throw some light on this it would be nice.
Bodhisattva Vow, various versions - Buddha's world

From your above link:

The vow of the Bodhisattva is that she will not go into Nirvana until every single suffering being has entered Nirvana. One has to understand what this means. Our awakening is not a personal triumph. We do not have to win a spiritual sprint. We are one mind. Awakening is to penetrate more and more deeply into this truth. The world is alive. And as long as there is suffering then this living whole is shattered. Whether it is my suffering or the suffering of another, when seen from the perspective of the Bodhisattva makes no difference, because, seen from this perspective there is no ‘me’ or ‘another.’ In the Diamond Sutra, “Although the Bodhisattva saves all sentient beings, there are no sentient beings to save.”

Albert Low​

Here's a story about a Bodhisattva, Wu-Ming. (Name meaning: Wu-without, Ming-clear vision. Although Wu-Ming might not be awakened himself, he does much to help in the awakening of others.)
The Cucumber Sage

Yes any phenomena... but Buddha doesnt stop there:

"When permission was granted he [monk] spoke as follows:

The Buddha teaches that all conformations are transient, that all conformations are subject to sorrow, that all conformations are lacking a self. How then can there be Nirvana, a state of eternal bliss?"'

And the Blessed One, this connection, on that occasion, breathed forth this solemn utterance: "There is, O monks, a state where there is neither earth, nor water, nor heat, nor air; neither infinity of space nor infinity of consciousness, nor nothingness, nor perception nor non-perception; neither this world nor that world, neither sun nor moon. It is the uncreate. That O monks, I term neither coming nor going nor standing; neither death nor birth. It is without stability, without change; it is the eternal which never originates and never passes away. There is the end of sorrow.

"It is hard to realize the essential, the truth is not easily perceived; desire is mastered by him who knows, and to him who sees aright all things are naught. There is, O monks, an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed. Were there not, O monks, this unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated and unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed."
The Three Characteristics And The Uncreated

Yes, you already posted this in post #58 of this thread. That is really not a good source, as was discussed in the posts following that thread. You might want to use the Pali suttas instead. Here are the 4 Nibbana Sutta from the Pali:

Here are the four (Unbinding) Nibbana Suttas:


All four suttas begin thusly:

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī at Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. And on that occasion the Blessed One was instructing, urging, rousing, & encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma.​

I'll post <...> in the following suttas for the above part.

Nibb&#257;na Sutta: Unbinding (1)
<...>
Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.

Nibb&#257;na Sutta: Unbinding (2)
<...>
Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
It's hard to see the unaffected, for the truth is not easily seen. Craving is pierced in one who knows; For one who sees, there is nothing.

Nibb&#257;na Sutta: Unbinding (3)
<...>
Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] &#8212; unbecome &#8212; unmade &#8212; unfabricated. If there were not that unborn &#8212; unbecome &#8212; unmade &#8212; unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born &#8212; become &#8212; made &#8212; fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn &#8212; unbecome &#8212; unmade &#8212; unfabricated, escape from the born &#8212; become &#8212; made &#8212; fabricated is discerned.[2]

Nibb&#257;na Sutta: Unbinding (4)
<...>
Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no yearning. There being no yearning, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress.[1]​

The first sutta seems to be talking about beyond the major jhanas.
The second sutta: Sounds like Tao Te Ching 1, no?
Third sutta: sounds very much like the Zen "pure consciousness," which is spontaneous, no?
Fourth sutta: Finding rest in non-duality?

 

[atanu]

---One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering---.

Total independence is possible only for the non-dual. I think, for us, whether Hindu or whether Buddhist, the 'Guru is God' applies equally.

 

[Ekanta]

In the Diamond Sutra, “Although the Bodhisattva saves all sentient beings, there are no sentient beings to save.”

There are no others.... this is well known advaita. Personally I always thought of the bodhisattva vows as a mind-set. IMO, it might as well be said that boddhisattva vows are "worship God in the beings", "render service", "get the focus off your ego", "purify the mind" etc. In hinduism the parallel would be karma-yoga & bhakti-yoga. A mind-set appropriate, which facilitates the end goal.

And concerning the uncreated.... if the mind, skandas etc, being itself among the created (transient, subject to sorrow, lacking a self), how can a mere state of such a transient mind be the eternal uncreated? Any state of mind belongs to the mind which is transient and hence cant be the uncreated. The uncreated must be different altogether. And hence Buddha says:
"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated"

And if you refer to "pure consciousness", is it a part of mind, a state of mind, a blank mind (all created) or different? What does zen say? To quote zen-master Deshimaru:

"What is real, Ku [emptiness], is Being itself, Original Mind, Pure Consciousness, of which the world is the temporal manifestation...."
http://www.izauk.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/spring08Godo.pdf

 

[crossfire]

There are no others.... this is well known advaita. Personally I always thought of the bodhisattva vows as a mind-set. IMO, it might as well be said that boddhisattva vows are "worship God in the beings", "render service", "get the focus off your ego", "purify the mind" etc. In hinduism the parallel would be karma-yoga & bhakti-yoga. A mind-set appropriate, which facilitates the end goal.

And concerning the uncreated.... if the mind, skandas etc, being itself among the created (transient, subject to sorrow, lacking a self), how can a mere state of such a transient mind be the eternal uncreated? Any state of mind belongs to the mind which is transient and hence cant be the uncreated. The uncreated must be different altogether. And hence Buddha says:
"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated"

And if you refer to "pure consciousness", is it a part of mind, a state of mind, a blank mind (all created) or different? What does zen say? To quote zen-master Deshimaru:

"What is real, Ku [emptiness], is Being itself, Original Mind, Pure Consciousness, of which the world is the temporal manifestation...."
http://www.izauk.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/spring08Godo.pdf

Original Mind in Zen is mind before all of the cultural programming/fabrication takes place. In Zen, you seek to drop fabrications from the mind--specifically cultural programming/fabrications. {In the same manner that Buddha urged people to drop the cultural programming/tradition during his time. I can provide sutta references to this, if you like.}
A mind that is free from cultural programming is truly universal--it can be "in the groove" wherever it goes--it is free from cultural biases, and free to act spontaneously and without cultural contrivance/ritual.

 

[Ekanta]

To quote zen-master Deshimaru:

"What is real, Ku [emptiness], is Being itself, Original Mind, Pure Consciousness, of which the world is the temporal manifestation...."
http://www.izauk.org/wp-content/uplo...ring08Godo.pdf

 

[crossfire]

To quote zen-master Deshimaru:

"What is real, Ku [emptiness], is Being itself, Original Mind, Pure Consciousness, of which the world is the temporal manifestation...."
http://www.izauk.org/wp-content/uplo...ring08Godo.pdf

Think verb, not noun--&#346;&#363;nyat&#257; means empty of inherent essence--dependent origination, interconnectedness of all things. Tathat&#257;, or thusness, is appreciation of the uniqueness of reality at a given moment--free from bias and spontaneous, not contrived. Pure consciousness is this fresh, moment to moment experience of and appreciation for each unique moment, empty of essence, empty of bias, yet in touch with the emptiness of the interconnectedness of everything without contrived distortion.

If you need more help understanding this, please inquire in the Zen subforum.

 

[illykitty]

Wasn't the Buddha saying to not just trust everything he said? To test things ourselves? What if someone experiences divinity, then should they throw that out of the window 'cause the Buddha said so?

Excuse my ignorance, trying to understand something here...

 

[crossfire]

Wasn't the Buddha saying to not just trust everything he said? To test things ourselves? What if someone experiences divinity, then should they throw that out of the window 'cause the Buddha said so?

Excuse my ignorance, trying to understand something here...

Indeed, Buddha wanted everyone to contemplate and see for themselves. From the handful of leaves sutta posted earlier in this thread:

And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"​

Your duty would be to identify dukkha, its origin, and its cessation. This would be in connection to anything you experience, including things that you might label as divinity. (One example of dukkha you might experience in connection to labeling/clinging to a divine experience might be a dark night of the soul experience.)

 

[Ekanta]

Think verb, not noun--&#346;&#363;nyat&#257; means empty of inherent essence--dependent origination, interconnectedness of all things. Tathat&#257;, or thusness, is appreciation of the uniqueness of reality at a given moment--free from bias and spontaneous, not contrived. Pure consciousness is this fresh, moment to moment experience of and appreciation for each unique moment, empty of essence, empty of bias, yet in touch with the emptiness of the interconnectedness of everything without contrived distortion.
If you need more help understanding this, please inquire in the Zen subforum.

Yes, let us ask wikipedia (lol) and let us ask in the zen forum (lol) they surely know! And if that isnt good enough, crossfire knows more than any zen-master thats ever lived!

 

[crossfire]

Yes, let us ask wikipedia (lol) and let us ask in the zen forum (lol) they surely know! And if that isnt good enough, crossfire knows more than any zen-master thats ever lived!

Are you interested in understanding, or interested in enforcing your own contrivance?

A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
​

 

[Poeticus]

Are you interested in understanding, or interested in enforcing your own contrivance?

A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
​

How can he empty his cup if the other dude won't stop pouring?

Nan-in is quite attached with pouring in tea until it overflows...even then, the dude kept going.

 

[Ekanta]

Are you interested in understanding, or interested in enforcing your own contrivance?

I quoted the true zen-tradition, what have u done? Quoted wikipedia!
GAME OVER!

 

[atanu]

Think verb, not noun------- Pure consciousness is this fresh, moment to moment experience of and appreciation for each unique moment, empty of essence, empty of bias, yet in touch with the emptiness of the interconnectedness of everything without contrived distortion.

If you need more help understanding this, please inquire in the Zen subforum.

When you are talking of moment to moment experience as Pure Consciousness, you surely are not thinking of the following:

here is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]

Or are you?

Moment to moment experience is arisen, created, and goes down from moment to moment. The experience is rooted in the uncreated, without which any discerning would not be possible.

I do not know, why forcibly, Buddhism has to be stripped of its spiritual base, by wilfully denying the uncreated that Buddha taught?

 

[crossfire]

Pardon me. He just reproduced the exact saying of a Zen master. You re-interpreted that with WIKI and your own cultural hang ups. Sorry.

Actually, the first thing I did was to explain what "Original Mind" means within Zen, so he could understand what was meant. He's the post:

Original Mind in Zen is mind before all of the cultural programming/fabrication takes place. In Zen, you seek to drop fabrications from the mind--specifically cultural programming/fabrications. {In the same manner that Buddha urged people to drop the cultural programming/tradition during his time. I can provide sutta references to this, if you like.}
A mind that is free from cultural programming is truly universal--it can be "in the groove" wherever it goes--it is free from cultural biases, and free to act spontaneously and without cultural contrivance/ritual.

If you notice, I did offer to provide suttas where the Buddha pointed to the same thing. All he did was then repost the same quote, instead of asking for sutta references. Since he wasn't interested in sutta references, then I figured that wiki explanations would suffice.

 

[Ekanta]

Actually, the first thing I did was to explain what "Original Mind" means within Zen, so he could understand what was meant.

So again... we should trust you instead of an authentic zen-master? Is that your conclusion?
All you do is pouring out your own interpretations, one upon the other!

 

[crossfire]

That is not the point, Crossfire. He originally asked wrt the uncreated. But your defined pure mind or pure consciousness is nowhere near the uncreated.

Please refer to http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3602889-post286.html

Like I wrote earlier, original mind/pure consciousness is consciousness without the cultural contrivances and biases. It is undistorted by cultural devices, unshaped (unformed) by these cultural devices, and arises spontaneously from moment to moment without being formed/influenced/shaped by these cultural forming/shaping factors/biases.

 

[crossfire]

So again... we should trust you instead of an authentic zen-master? Is that your conclusion?
All you do is pouring out your own interpretations, one upon the other!

You should investigate for yourself and experience for yourself!