But, he died for us!!

[joeboonda]

As Andre Crouch sang:

I don't know why Jesus loves me
I don't know why He cares
I don't know why He sacrificed His life
Oh, but I'm glad, I'm glad He did, so glad He did
I'm glad He did

 

[Booko]

In addition, opening a conversation with "Do you know where you are going when you die?" is not the most endearing in the world. Also "Did you know Jesus loves you?" is kind of creepy, actually.

The "Do you know where you're going to go when you die" either made me wait for the Bible to come thumping on my head immediately after, or caused me to sweetly reply, "Yes dear, I do." which rather leaves people with nowhere else to go.

I never found "Did you know Jesus loves you?" to be creepy. I just said "Yes" and kept walking, even back in my rabid atheist days. But then, I'm told I have an odd sense of humour.

 

[Booko]

Very true. Different strokes for different folks. St. Paul for example didn't start off different, with different people. A sure sign of his wisdom.

This makes me want to start a new thread about what Paul might've meant when he said to be all things to all people. I've heard some nefarious motives put on that statement, but I've never found it so myself.

But to get back on topic, what did Paul say and/or do in his work spreading the Gospel, and how might that be put into practice today? Surely there's something instructive there. We may be dealing with a different cultural milieu, but in many ways humans are still pretty much as they always were.

And since we're in Biblical debates, what other examples for spreading the Gospel might be taken from what's in the Biblical accounts of other disciples?

 

[sparkyluv]

Yes, according to the Bible, Jesus did die willingly for our sins. What? He was forced to die? Killed, you say? Well, maybe. But lets just imagine that he died willingly. Of course, this is an honorable thing to do, dying for the sake of others. But honestly, he was Jesus and he "Knew" that as soon as he did die, he would be with his father in Heaven, worshiped by all humans for all eternity. If I knew for a fact that this was coming to me, I would also be happy to hand over my life. It just doesn't sound so amazing to me that it should decide the fate of millions of people to come. They either decide to accept that he died for our sins, or they don't -- leading to them either going to Heaven or Hell. I'm sure everyone knows someone or knows of someone that has done this very thing that Jesus has done. Soldiers give up their lives daily to protect thier countries, families, values, and beliefs. And not just soldiers. Every day people sacrifice themselves to save others -- thier children, family, friends, or complete strangers.

How Jesus gave his life isn't the same as a solider. Ever heard of Jesus being referred to as 'The Lamb of God'? In the old testament, the Jews would often sacrifice a Lamb to God to cleanse them of their sins and they would do this repeatedly. Jesus became that Lamb. He was the final blood sacrifice. Jesus came because there is a HUGE gap between man and God. Because of sin, we're not allowed to be in the presense of a Holy God. We are forever seperated and destined for hell. "For the wages of sin is death..." Because of sin, from the tinest white lie to a mass murder, we deserve death. Jesus became that bridge, the mediator between man and God. Through Jesus, we are able to be in the presense of God and come before Him and live an eternal life in Heaven. Jesus took on the wrath of God for us, so that we wouldn't have to. He became sin in the eyes of the Lord, and the Lord was pleased to crush him. He didn't just die for our sins, he died in our place.

About God sacrificing his only son. Can anyone else see that this is just a bit dramatic? Granted, losing a son is a terrible thing, but in reality, he didn't really lose him. Not even close. God created his son when he decided that he was needed, knowing that his life on Earth would eventually end, bringing him closer to his father. And need I even mention the fact that God could create a million more sons if he wanted to? Oh wait...isn't that what he did? Isn't that what we all are?

Yes, we are all God's children. But those who are not in Christ Jesus are enemies of the father. We are sheep that have gone astray. Jesus is God's only begotten son. He is fully God and fully man. When we are in Christ Jesus, we are adopted son's and daughters. A popular illustration of Jesus's death is of all of us standing infront of a oncoming bus and Jesus pushing us all out of the way and dying in our place. That's a good way to put it, but it's not the right way because people forget that God is the one driving the bus. God is in the driver's seat, the bus is his wrath, and Jesus paid the price that we were meant to pay.

Look, I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't as great as everyone is saying that he was, and I'm not saying that he wasn't really the son of God (at least not yet) -- all I'm saying is that when defending your religion, you might want to come up with something more substantial then happenings that, once stripped of all their glamour, are just every-day occurences.

It only seems like an every-day occurence when you don't fully understand it.

 

[egroen]

God is the one driving the bus.

He needs to get off his cell phone.
:run:

Sorry... I'd rather laugh at this metaphor than think of a god steering a speeding bus right at me.

-Erin

 

[Jane D.]

"Jesus took on the wrath of God for us, so that we wouldn't have to. He became sin in the eyes of the Lord, and the Lord was pleased to crush him. He didn't just die for our sins, he died in our place."

I don't know how to do quotes yet...sorry!
This statement is one that makes my stomach turn, and should probably be anothe rthread, so I'll just touch on it lightly.
God was pleased to crush him? Do you hear yourself? I have a serious problem with God finding pleasure in destruction, and having wrath at all. This kind of talk repels me with every fiber of my being from coming closer to Christianity. it makes God sound like the enemy.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"Jesus took on the wrath of God for us, so that we wouldn't have to. He became sin in the eyes of the Lord, and the Lord was pleased to crush him. He didn't just die for our sins, he died in our place."

I don't know how to do quotes yet...sorry!
This statement is one that makes my stomach turn, and should probably be anothe rthread, so I'll just touch on it lightly.
God was pleased to crush him? Do you hear yourself? I have a serious problem with God finding pleasure in destruction, and having wrath at all.This kind of talk repels me with every fiber of my being from coming closer to Christianity. it makes God sound like the enemy.

Some people are enemies of God. :cover:

And God is at emnity with some people. :areyoucra

 

[Quiddity]

This makes me want to start a new thread about what Paul might've meant when he said to be all things to all people. I've heard some nefarious motives put on that statement, but I've never found it so myself.

But to get back on topic, what did Paul say and/or do in his work spreading the Gospel, and how might that be put into practice today? Surely there's something instructive there. We may be dealing with a different cultural milieu, but in many ways humans are still pretty much as they always were.

And since we're in Biblical debates, what other examples for spreading the Gospel might be taken from what's in the Biblical accounts of other disciples?

More then anything one needs to start with the bias that not everything is in the Bible. This may be obvious to many us, but some denominations within Christianity swear by it. It needs extrapolation and interpretation by a learned authority.

That's a starting point that perhaps many aren't willing to take. After all, the people of the Apostolic era more then likely said "who are you that we should listen to you".

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Some people are enemies of God. :cover:

And God is at emnity with some people. :areyoucra

Psalm 5:10
Make them bear their guilt, O God;let them fall by their own counsels;because of the abundance of their transgressions cast them out,for they have rebelled against you.

Psalm 21:11
Though they plan evil against you,though they devise mischief, they will not succeed.
Psalm 21:10-12 (in Context) Psalm 21 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 32:2
Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity,and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
Psalm 32:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 32 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 34:16
The face of the LORD is against those who do evil,to cut off the memory of them from the earth.
Psalm 34:15-17 (in Context) Psalm 34 (Whole Chapter)

 

[sparkyluv]

"Jesus took on the wrath of God for us, so that we wouldn't have to. He became sin in the eyes of the Lord, and the Lord was pleased to crush him. He didn't just die for our sins, he died in our place."

I don't know how to do quotes yet...sorry!
This statement is one that makes my stomach turn, and should probably be anothe rthread, so I'll just touch on it lightly.
God was pleased to crush him? Do you hear yourself? I have a serious problem with God finding pleasure in destruction, and having wrath at all. This kind of talk repels me with every fiber of my being from coming closer to Christianity. it makes God sound like the enemy.

It is very shocking and yeah, it does make my stomach turn sometimes. But yes, the Lord was pleased to crush him. It was his will do to so in order to have a relationship with us. No one likes to talk about the wrath of God, but it's there. People like to go on and on about him being a loving God, but people forget that he does have a wrath. If he didn't have a wrath, then Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross. All sinners are subject to the wrath of God, except those sinners that are saved by grace.

 

[cardero]

Look, I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't as great as everyone is saying that he was, and I'm not saying that he wasn't really the son of God (at least not yet) -- all I'm saying is that when defending your religion, you might want to come up with something more substantial then happenings that, once stripped of all their glamour, are just every-day occurences.

Millions of entities die for us daily, I have yet to see a Cathedral of Asparagus (though I do have a suitable president in mind for this church) or a First Church Of Bovines. If you remember anything about the death of Jesus remember that there are other life forms that are willing to die now so that we may live for tomorrow.

 

[Booko]

First--while agree there are thousands(wouldn't it be great if that was an over-statement) of people being tortured and killed everyday--most of them do not do so willing or to save others--so that is the 1st point that made his death unique--2nd most of those people are not going to be attributed with rising from the dead 2 days later--which I think also adds to the mystique. 3rd--the majority of those people will not have willingly left thier comfortable homes to preach the word of God-to preach forgiveness and tolerance, turning the other cheek, and pacifism. Nor will most of them have miracles attributed to thier names.

Apparently you missed my point. Jesus is not the only religious figure who sacrificed his life for the purpose of bringing a message from God to mankind.

Let me try again, ok? If I told you there was a Prophet in Iran who preached a message from God for three years and willingly gave up his life in 1850 so that he might give us this wonderful message -- would that be enough to ask you to sign up an join a religion? It *might* be enough to get you curious about the message, maybe, and look to see if this guy had the saintly character one should expect of a real prophet, but I suspect you wouldn't find it enough to join up with a religion. Is this a better example?

Christians who just preach or try to convert based on Jesus death are missing his point--Jesus wasn't about death--he was about rebirth/resurrection--overcoming your sins-and doing good by treating others as you would wish to be treated.

Naturally, I would agree.

 

[Booko]

Absolutely. Until 2 years ago, I was from that pov.

Of course! But when people are trying to spread the Good News, it helps to understand who your audience is. I would never talk to an atheist about Jesus the same way I would to a Christian. I have a lot of beliefs in common with Christians when it comes to Christ (maybe most of them) and the Bible, so it makes sense when talking to Christians to speak about things we already believe in common. I can quote the Bible to a Christian to illustrate some point. That doesn't always make sense with someone who doesn't believe the Bible contains a message from God.

You're telling me to accept this great gift of a man's death, but I never would have asked for Him to die in the first place.

I'm not TELLING you or even asking to do anything (except maybe to not criticise me for stating my beliefs ). I'm just telling you about the sacrifice He already made. It's your own choice whether or not to choose to believe or accept that.

Snowbear, I believe that when *you* say these things, you're just stating your belief, and that you are coming from the pov that it's my own choice to believe or accept that, but I can tell you from hard experience that it isn't usually the approach I get when someone decides to teach me the Gospel.

Usually if we're just chatting about religious views generally, that works out very well. I'm talking about people who are, shall we say, out to save my soul?

How about a resurrected one? Now THAT would be a special gift

How so? It's been pointed out before that there are plenty of stories about dying and resurrected gods. Why should I believe yours above the others?

And as I pointed out before, I wasn't there to witness a resurrection. All I have for proof that happened is your book said so. There are no corroborating sources.

Now, don't get me wrong here. When it comes to the Resurrection, I have no problem believing in that. Seriously, what better demonstration to people that there is a life after this one, and that there's more than just here? I'm on board with that. But I only got to that point when I *first* understood and really heard the message of the Gospel. Then the whole sacrifice and resurrection thing just created a stronger belief and just love and gratefulness that someone would even be willing to do what Jesus did. But it was not a place to *start*.

I'm not "selling" anything. The Word speaks for itself.

Don't take "selling" in the negative way it's sometimes used, as in "used car salesman." :cover: In a way, yes, Christians *are* selling something -- the Gospel. You're trying to spread the idea that there is something very positive in the Gospel if we will accept it. If you prefer to call it "spreading" that's fine with me, but honestly, when it comes to selling or spreading the message, there are some *honest* techniques salesmen can use to get your attention, and there are certain things good and honest salesmen avoid because they know they're just turnoffs. There's nothing inherently wrong or underhanded about salesmanship.

The OP made statements about the meaninglessness of Jesus' sacrifice. I answered those from my pov of believing the teachings of the Bible....just as you answer posts from your own pov. If you were to go back and read my first post in this thread, you should see that I emphasized the resurrection, NOT the death, of Christ.

The OP made the statements from the pov of "why would you even tell me this, and why should I care?"

My comments were addressed to why Christians should realize that a lot of people who don't already believe in Christ may not understand "Christ died for your sins."

Between believers, this makes perfect sense. When you're talking to someone else, it sometimes comes off like gobbledygook, from *their* point of view.

In purely practical terms, why would you want to do that? And would you not at all appreciate the advice from those who are non-Chrisitians so you can spend your time witnessing in a way that might actually make sense to them? And would you not want to avoid annoying people? It's kinda tough to get the message of Christ out if you've annoyed the person you're speaking to.

We have a phrase for that amongst American Baha'is. It's called "innoculating people against the faith."

I find it hard to believe that Christians would want to continue to do things that would "innoculate" anyone against Christ, once they've figured out what those things are.

Oh sure, there are hard sayings that anyone will have to deal with. There always are. But to start off like you're speaking in tongues and it's one the other person doesn't understand, well, that just doesn't seem too practical.

Oh dear, I'm very sorry I've replied with such a long ramble. I really should know better by now to try and cook dinner and post at the same time.

I hope this reply was at least a little helpful.

 

[Mister_T]

All sinners are subject to the wrath of God, except those sinners that are saved by grace.

Sinners are sinners. All are equal in terms of judgement. No one will bypass this process. No one gets a self righteous high horse to sit on.

 

[sparkyluv]

Sinners are sinners. All are equal in terms of judgement. No one will bypass this process. No one gets a self righteous high horse to sit on.

Of course we're all equal in terms of judgement. I never said we weren't. Those who are in Christ Jesus aren't subject to the wrath of God. Only those who are still bound in their sin are.

 

[cardero]

Of course we're all equal in terms of judgement. I never said we weren't. Those who are in Christ Jesus aren't subject to the wrath of God. Only those who are still bound in their sin are.

What does those "who are in Christ Jesus" mean?

 

[Booko]

Millions of entities die for us daily, I have yet to see a Cathedral of Asparagus (though I do have a suitable president in mind for this church) or a First Church Of Bovines. If you remember anything about the death of Jesus remember that there are other life forms that are willing to die now so that we may live for tomorrow.

I'm not so sure those Bovines are so willing as they are simply unaware.

Is BrandonE your suitable president for the Cathedral of Asparagus?

And now I must be off to research the history of Choodle. There may be comparisons there I had not thought of...

 

[Booko]

More then anything one needs to start with the bias that not everything is in the Bible. This may be obvious to many us, but some denominations within Christianity swear by it. It needs extrapolation and interpretation by a learned authority.

Oh, I was raised sola scriptura enough, but I married a nice Catholic boy. I got over that *really* quick. I can also thank some Jewish friends for that as well.

That's a starting point that perhaps many aren't willing to take. After all, the people of the Apostolic era more then likely said "who are you that we should listen to you".

Most of them did, obviously. But not everyone did. The progress that was made spreading the Gospel in the first couple of centuries is really nothing short of remarkable.

It's said that great artists are usually not appreciated until after they're dead.

How much more so that is for prophets.

 

[Booko]

It is very shocking and yeah, it does make my stomach turn sometimes. But yes, the Lord was pleased to crush him. It was his will do to so in order to have a relationship with us. No one likes to talk about the wrath of God, but it's there. People like to go on and on about him being a loving God, but people forget that he does have a wrath. If he didn't have a wrath, then Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross. All sinners are subject to the wrath of God, except those sinners that are saved by grace.

Wrath is what children with tantrums or spiteful adults have.

That God's love comes along with justice, that I have no problem with.

I see Mr T has already commented on the "get out of jail free" card, so I won't bother.

 

[Booko]

What does those "who are in Christ Jesus" mean?

And who gets to decide who's part of this select group?