But, he died for us!!

[Jane D.]

This is just the first of many questions that will go through my mind about the Bible, Christianity, etc etc etc.

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about religion (imagine that), and one thing that I heard her say struck something in me. When anyone asks the question, "Why should we worship the biblical God, and why should we accept Jesus into our hearts, for any other reason other than if we don't, we go to hell?" The popular answer is something like "Jesus died for us" or "God gave his only son for us"

These comments usually just pas sthrough my mind as being unimportant because they don't contain any logic or moral reasoning, just simple unprovable facts. But then I started thinking about it more. It's actually a very telling statement about the religion of many people, and maybe those people should think twice about using this answer.

Yes, according to the Bible, Jesus did die willingly for our sins. What? He was forced to die? Killed, you say? Well, maybe. But lets just imagine that he died willingly. Of course, this is an honorable thing to do, dying for the sake of others. But honestly, he was Jesus and he "Knew" that as soon as he did die, he would be with his father in Heaven, worshiped by all humans for all eternity. If I knew for a fact that this was coming to me, I would also be happy to hand over my life. It just doesn't sound so amazing to me that it should decide the fate of millions of people to come. They either decide to accept that he died for our sins, or they don't -- leading to them either going to Heaven or Hell. I'm sure everyone knows someone or knows of someone that has done this very thing that Jesus has done. Soldiers give up their lives daily to protect thier countries, families, values, and beliefs. And not just soldiers. Every day people sacrifice themselves to save others -- thier children, family, friends, or complete strangers.

About God sacrificing his only son. Can anyone else see that this is just a bit dramatic? Granted, losing a son is a terrible thing, but in reality, he didn't really lose him. Not even close. God created his son when he decided that he was needed, knowing that his life on Earth would eventually end, bringing him closer to his father. And need I even mention the fact that God could create a million more sons if he wanted to? Oh wait...isn't that what he did? Isn't that what we all are?

Look, I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't as great as everyone is saying that he was, and I'm not saying that he wasn't really the son of God (at least not yet) -- all I'm saying is that when defending your religion, you might want to come up with something more substantial then happenings that, once stripped of all their glamour, are just every-day occurences.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

This is just the first of many questions that will go through my mind about the Bible, Christianity, etc etc etc.

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about religion (imagine that), and one thing that I heard her say struck something in me. When anyone asks the question, "Why should we worship the biblical God, and why should we accept Jesus into our hearts, for any other reason other than if we don't, we go to hell?" The popular answer is something like "Jesus died for us" or "God gave his only son for us"

These comments usually just pas sthrough my mind as being unimportant because they don't contain any logic or moral reasoning, just simple unprovable facts. But then I started thinking about it more. It's actually a very telling statement about the religion of many people, and maybe those people should think twice about using this answer.

Yes, according to the Bible, Jesus did die willingly for our sins. What? He was forced to die? Killed, you say? Well, maybe. But lets just imagine that he died willingly. Of course, this is an honorable thing to do, dying for the sake of others. But honestly, he was Jesus and he "Knew" that as soon as he did die, he would be with his father in Heaven, worshiped by all humans for all eternity. If I knew for a fact that this was coming to me, I would also be happy to hand over my life. It just doesn't sound so amazing to me that it should decide the fate of millions of people to come. They either decide to accept that he died for our sins, or they don't -- leading to them either going to Heaven or Hell. I'm sure everyone knows someone or knows of someone that has done this very thing that Jesus has done. Soldiers give up their lives daily to protect thier countries, families, values, and beliefs. And not just soldiers. Every day people sacrifice themselves to save others -- thier children, family, friends, or complete strangers.

About God sacrificing his only son. Can anyone else see that this is just a bit dramatic? Granted, losing a son is a terrible thing, but in reality, he didn't really lose him. Not even close. God created his son when he decided that he was needed, knowing that his life on Earth would eventually end, bringing him closer to his father. And need I even mention the fact that God could create a million more sons if he wanted to? Oh wait...isn't that what he did? Isn't that what we all are?

Look, I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't as great as everyone is saying that he was, and I'm not saying that he wasn't really the son of God (at least not yet) -- all I'm saying is that when defending your religion, you might want to come up with something more substantial then happenings that, once stripped of all their glamour, are just every-day occurences.

Religious myth is the "glamour" I think that you speak of. Religion with no myth would defeat the purpose of religion...

 

[Snowbear]

Yes, according to the Bible, Jesus did die willingly for our sins. What? He was forced to die? Killed, you say? Well, maybe. But lets just imagine that he died willingly. Of course, this is an honorable thing to do, dying for the sake of others. But honestly, he was Jesus and he "Knew" that as soon as he did die, he would be with his father in Heaven, worshiped by all humans for all eternity...

I don't worhip Jesus just because He died. If that was all there was to it, Christianity would be just another religion. The miracle of salvation is the resurrection - after He died to pay the sin debt, He demonstrated the future resurrection of believers by being resurrected Himself.

 

[Jane D.]

Yes, you have a point.
To me, this myth just isn't strong enough to hold its own. It is not a powerful enough myth to hold the weight of the religion. Maybe I'm not making much sense. What I'm trying to say is that, this occurence of Jesus sacrificing himself / God sacrificing his son, is not so incredibly amazing as to be worthy of deciding the fate of millions of people. If you're going to use myth to define a religion, shouldn't it be awe-inspiring? Shouldn't it be more incredible then every-day life? This miracle is just not miraculous enough. It's not self-sacrificing enough, not moral enough, not mind-blowingly selfless and good-natured enough. Do you know what I mean?

 

[Booko]

I don't worhip Jesus just because He died. If that was all there was to it, Christianity would be just another religion. The miracle of salvation is the resurrection - after He died to pay the sin debt, He demonstrated the future resurrection of believers by being resurrected Himself.

I cannot tell you how many times I have responded to proselytizing Christians who take the tack in the OP by pointing out that if everything they say about Christ were true and I believed it, that I fail to see what use it would be to the world if He had not also taught the GOSPEL.

Seriously folks, if the Son of God showed up, was crucified and all, but didn't teach anything, what possible use would that be to humanity or our salvation?

If you want to proselytize to non-Christians, it would really really helpful to keep this in mind.

 

[Snowbear]

To me, this myth just isn't strong enough to hold its own. It is not a powerful enough myth to hold the weight of the religion. Maybe I'm not making much sense. What I'm trying to say is that, this occurence of Jesus sacrificing himself / God sacrificing his son, is not so incredibly amazing as to be worthy of deciding the fate of millions of people.

If you're going to use myth to define a religion, shouldn't it be awe-inspiring? Shouldn't it be more incredible then every-day life?

What is so "every-day" about a Messiah taking on the sins of all humankind, taking the punishment for them (including being forsaken by God), the conquering the eternal death and being resurrected?

This miracle is just not miraculous enough.

How much more miraculous does it need to be?

It's not self-sacrificing enough...

What more sacrifice can anyone give than His own life?

...not moral enough...

How much more moral than sinless can Jesus be?

...not mind-blowingly selfless and good-natured enough.

Again - what can possibly be more selfless and good-natured than a Man who is sinless, who Loves me, you and everyone so much that He allowed Himself to be beaten, humiliated, scorned, forsaken by God and killed so we wouldn't have to be?

Do you know what I mean?

I think so.... it seems you don't want to believe it is enough that God loves you so much that He sacrificed Himself so you can spend eternity with Him??
He already made the sacrifice. He already paid the price.... whether or not you choose to accept this gift.

 

[Snowbear]

I cannot tell you how many times I have responded to proselytizing Christians who take the tack in the OP by pointing out that if everything they say about Christ were true and I believed it, that I fail to see what use it would be to the world if He had not also taught the GOSPEL.

You state what you believe. I state what I believe. If you want to say that by stating my beliefs and what I believe the Bible teaches is proselytizing, well... so be it. If you would rather not read my posts, you have the option of using the "Ignore this User" button

Booko, I don't criticize you for how you state your beliefs. Why do you feel the need to criticize me just because you don't believe the same things I do?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes, you have a point.
To me, this myth just isn't strong enough to hold its own. It is not a powerful enough myth to hold the weight of the religion. Maybe I'm not making much sense. What I'm trying to say is that, this occurence of Jesus sacrificing himself / God sacrificing his son, is not so incredibly amazing as to be worthy of deciding the fate of millions of people. If you're going to use myth to define a religion, shouldn't it be awe-inspiring? Shouldn't it be more incredible then every-day life? This miracle is just not miraculous enough. It's not self-sacrificing enough, not moral enough, not mind-blowingly selfless and good-natured enough. Do you know what I mean?

But the myth is awe-inspiring. You've reduced the myth to the everyday after you rejected it.

 

[Jane D.]

Again, the emphasis on him sacrificing his own life, like it is such a huge deal. What did he go through? Honestly? He was beaten, yes. Scorned, yes. Forsaken by God, yes...for like, three days (which compared to an eternity of sitting in the presence of God, and being worshiped by all things with a soul, is a pretty short time). Killed, yes. Now, think of how many people are going through ALL of that every day out in the world, and tell me why it is so much more amazing for Christ to do it? Again, all of the drama. He is Jesus, for God's sake! (Please excuse the pun) My point is, his life is the real example of goodness, of sinlessness, selflessness, morality. His death and so-called sacrifice was nothing spectacular. No matter how many times you say it, and how much you describe the torture that he went through...there is an example of people going through more...only without the eternal worship and recognition. If you want to portray the real goodness in the religion, don't tell me about how he died for us. Tell me about how he lived for us.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Again, the emphasis on him sacrificing his own life, like it is such a huge deal. What did he go through? Honestly? He was beaten, yes. Scorned, yes. Forsaken by God, yes...for like, three days (which compared to an eternity of sitting in the presence of God, and being worshiped by all things with a soul, is a pretty short time). Killed, yes. Now, think of how many people are going through ALL of that every day out in the world, and tell me why it is so much more amazing for Christ to do it? Again, all of the drama. He is Jesus, for God's sake! (Please excuse the pun) My point is, his life is the real example of goodness, of sinlessness, selflessness, morality. His death and so-called sacrifice was nothing spectacular. No matter how many times you say it, and how much you describe the torture that he went through...there is an example of people going through more...only without the eternal worship and recognition. If you want to portray the real goodness in the religion, don't tell me about how he died for us. Tell me about how he lived for us.

Like Socrates, his manner of living led directly to his death. There is no telling of his life without telling of his death. The way of Jesus Christ is the way of the cross.

 

[Snowbear]

Tell me about how he lived for us.

He lived on earth as a Man out of Love for us. He was resurrected and continues to live out of Love for us. Everything He taught in the gospels was about Loving God and loving people... out of this love comes patience, kindness, forgiveness, service, sacrifice.... He set the ultimate example for all of that for us.

 

[egroen]

I've never been too impressed with the "He died for us" argument either... plenty of people have died for extremely questionable causes.

Yes, coming back from the dead certainly is miraculous but a little hard to swallow for skeptics, especially considering how parallel this myth is to the pantheon of other god/man entities which came before him. I too, am much more impressed with his life.

-Erin

 

[Jane D.]

Snowbear, Thank you for that. I was actually just meaning in general. As my advice to Christians who want to spread the word, put more emphasis on Christ's life, and less on his death.

 

[Booko]

What is so "every-day" about a Messiah taking on the sins of all humankind, taking the punishment for them (including being forsaken by God), the conquering the eternal death and being resurrected?

Not to downplay Christ by any means, but it would be helpful for Christians to realize that Jesus was by no means the only religous martyr in history. That being the case, a non-Christian is going to ask, "OK, but why should I think that makes Jesus more special then?"

And then maybe they'll ask you how you can prove He actually took punishment on Himself or conquered eternal death, other than your Book says so.

How much more miraculous does it need to be?

It's only a miracle if you believe it's a miracle. That's the problem with miracles -- they are only proof for the people who are present at the time, and even then someone will claim it was all done with mirrors.

What more sacrifice can anyone give than His own life?

See above. He's not the only one whose done this. Perfectly normal mortals do this sort of thing all the time. They sacrifice themselves to save others from speeding cars, burning building, dropping bombs, starvation, genocide, whatever. And it isn't just Christians who do this -- it's all humans who do.

How much more moral than sinless can Jesus be?

Now there's something I find very useful to look at! Examine the life of Jesus and His teachings. Imagine a world where we put this into action. Would that world be better or worse than this one? If better, why would you not want to be part of that?

Again - what can possibly be more selfless and good-natured than a Man who is sinless, who Loves me, you and everyone so much that He allowed Himself to be beaten, humiliated, scorned, forsaken by God and killed so we wouldn't have to be?

The problem here is, you believe Jesus was sinless. But someone who doesn't believe in Jesus has no reason to believe that, other then...your Book says so.

I think so.... it seems you don't want to believe it is enough that God loves you so much that He sacrificed Himself so you can spend eternity with Him??
He already made the sacrifice. He already paid the price.... whether or not you choose to accept this gift.

The problem here is that, unlike early Christians, I was not raised in a culture where blood sacrifice was a part of life, and it makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

I come from a culture where to waste life with no purpose is a "sin" and killing animals to appease some deity definitely ranks up there with wanton destruction. This is not a deity I would care to look up to -- I would prefer the Great Spirit of my forefathers, who did not think disturbing the ecosystem to destroy was a good thing. :cover:

As a metaphor for early Christians, I'd guess it was a very powerful one, but today? It doesn't mean anything to me at all. In all seriousness, if you told me that Christ had a good recipe for chicken pot pie I would be more interested than the stuff about "paying the price." I wouldn't have asked Him to die in the first place.

Do you see how nonsensical this can sound to someone from a different pov? You're telling me to accept this great gift of a man's death, but I never would have asked for Him to die in the first place. What kind of gift is that? Will you bring me a dead cat as a gift? I would prefer a live one...

Now, as it happens, I do think that Christ brought a great gift -- the message of the Gospel.

And I *do* see the point of the sacrifice He made, but *only* after seeing the truth of His life and the message He brought. The death is important because it fulfills prophecy and shows the very serious nature of what Christ was about, but in itself, to a non-believer, it's not going to look important at all.

edit: I wouldn't sell short the sacrifices Christ made in life either. He could've stayed home in the carpentry business. Instead, he lived without a home, often in danger from the powers-that-be. These are sacrifices also, and should not be ignored.

Just as a matter of a religious sales pitch, starting off with the sacrifice of Jesus is maybe not the way to go. Save that for later when it will make some sense to a non-believer.

 

[Jane D.]

Well said Booko...my point exactly.

 

[egroen]

Just as a matter of a religious sales pitch, starting off with the sacrifice of Jesus is maybe not the way to go.

In addition, opening a conversation with "Do you know where you are going when you die?" is not the most endearing in the world. Also "Did you know Jesus loves you?" is kind of creepy, actually.

-Erin

 

[Quiddity]

Just as a matter of a religious sales pitch, starting off with the sacrifice of Jesus is maybe not the way to go. Save that for later when it will make some sense to a non-believer.

Very true. Different strokes for different folks. St. Paul for example didn't start off different, with different people. A sure sign of his wisdom.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

In addition, opening a conversation with "Do you know where you are going when you die?" is not the most endearing in the world. Also "Did you know Jesus loves you?" is kind of creepy, actually.

-Erin

I agree completely.

When people ask me that question, I say, "absolutely not."

 

[kateyes]

......... Killed, yes. Now, think of how many people are going through ALL of that every day out in the world, and tell me why it is so much more amazing for Christ to do it? Again, all of the drama. He is Jesus, for God's sake! (Please excuse the pun) My point is, his life is the real example of goodness, of sinlessness, selflessness, morality. His death and so-called sacrifice was nothing spectacular. No matter how many times you say it, and how much you describe the torture that he went through...there is an example of people going through more...only without the eternal worship and recognition. If you want to portray the real goodness in the religion, don't tell me about how he died for us. Tell me about how he lived for us.

First--while agree there are thousands(wouldn't it be great if that was an over-statement) of people being tortured and killed everyday--most of them do not do so willing or to save others--so that is the 1st point that made his death unique--2nd most of those people are not going to be attributed with rising from the dead 2 days later--which I think also adds to the mystique. 3rd--the majority of those people will not have willingly left thier comfortable homes to preach the word of God-to preach forgiveness and tolerance, turning the other cheek, and pacifism. Nor will most of them have miracles attributed to thier names.

Christians who just preach or try to convert based on Jesus death are missing his point--Jesus wasn't about death--he was about rebirth/resurrection--overcoming your sins-and doing good by treating others as you would wish to be treated.

 

[Snowbear]

Do you see how nonsensical this can sound to someone from a different pov?

Absolutely. Until 2 years ago, I was from that pov.
quote=Booko]You're telling me to accept this great gift of a man's death, but I never would have asked for Him to die in the first place.[/quote]
I'm not TELLING you or even asking to do anything (except maybe to not criticise me for stating my beliefs ). I'm just telling you about the sacrifice He already made. It's your own choice whether or not to choose to believe or accept that.

What kind of gift is that? Will you bring me a dead cat as a gift? I would prefer a live one....

How about a resurrected one? Now THAT would be a special gift

Just as a matter of a religious sales pitch, starting off with the sacrifice of Jesus is maybe not the way to go.

I'm not "selling" anything. The Word speaks for itself.

The OP made statements about the meaninglessness of Jesus' sacrifice. I answered those from my pov of believing the teachings of the Bible....just as you answer posts from your own pov. If you were to go back and read my first post in this thread, you should see that I emphasized the resurrection, NOT the death, of Christ.