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Buddhism, Taoism, and Heraclitus

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
I've been doing a little reading on the ancient Greek philosopher Heraclitus, and it seems a lot of what he taught is mirrored in Buddhism and Taoism. So, just how close was he to these two eastern religions? What were some of the similarities, and some of the differences? Are there any other western philosophers who, like Heraclitus, taught much of what is taught in eastern religions?
 

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
I have been of the belief, since college, that if Sir Isaac Newton and Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz can come up with Calculus independently of each other, with no knowledge of each other, it is highly possible for peoples and societies to come up with similar concepts with no knowledge of each other what-so-ever.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
^ This.

Consider that the human brain is hardwired for language. The hypothesis (it's not a theory because it cannot be tested) is that language may have arisen many times in human prehistory, in various locations and among various groups. I think it's not a stretch that certain philosophies and ways of thinking are inherent humans, including the predisposition towards religion.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
I've been doing a little reading on the ancient Greek philosopher Heraclitus, and it seems a lot of what he taught is mirrored in Buddhism and Taoism. So, just how close was he to these two eastern religions? What were some of the similarities, and some of the differences? Are there any other western philosophers who, like Heraclitus, taught much of what is taught in eastern religions?

Yes, Epicurus founded the other major school of Ancient Greek thought and also shares some striking similarities with Buddhism and Taoism. He taught moderate asceticism with an emphasis on minimizing suffering through meditation, friendship, and simplifying desires.

Many people are under the stereotypical impression that East=meditation/mysticism and West=contemplation/intellectualization, but things have definitely never been that clear cut. East is West and West is East and Reality is constant regardless.
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Both Stoicism and Epicureanism also make much more sense from the nondual perspective. Heraclitus taught constant change and the unity of opposites. Epicurus taught that pleasure and pain were interconnected. It is definitely worth revisiting these ancient ways of life for modern "Westerners".
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
I have found both Stoicism and Cynicism to be similar to Taoism and Buddhism (mostly of the Zen variety).

I had never read about Heraclitus, im finding it interesting to read about him; thanks for sharing.

Im a fan of the ancient Greek philosophers. They are the closes thing in the west to what is found in India with the various teachers of their own philosophical path. I know we've had a discussion, somewhere in the Dharmic DIR, about this in the past.
 

DreadFish

Cosmic Vagabond
Some of the basic tenants of Cynicism:


  1. The goal of life is Eudaimonia and mental clarity or lucidity (ἁτυφια) - freedom from τύφος (smoke) which signified ignorance, mindlessness, folly and conceit.
  2. Eudaimonia is achieved by living in accord with Nature as understood by human reason.
  3. τύφος is caused by false judgments of value, which cause negative emotions, unnatural desires and a vicious character.
  4. Eudaimonia or human flourishing, depends on self-sufficiency (αὐτάρκεια), equanimity, arete, love of humanity, parrhesia and indifference to the vicissitudes of life (ἁδιαφορία).[11]
  5. One progresses towards flourishing and clarity through ascetic practices (ἄσκησις) which help one become free from influences – such as wealth, fame, or power – that have no value in Nature. Examples include Diogenes' practice of living in a tub and walking barefoot in winter.
  6. A Cynic practices shamelessness or impudence (Αναιδεια) and defaces the Nomos of society; the laws, customs and social conventions which people take for granted.
Cynicism (philosophy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Some of the basic tenants of Cynicism

Thanks for sharing that. It seems that many of those tenants were shared by the Stoics and Epicureans as well. They mostly differed in their metaphysics and theories of language. Perhaps if the Ancient Greeks hadn't been such armchair philosophers, they would've got their hands dirty developing a prescientific method based on the groundwork by Epicurus and the others. I don't know why I'm blaming them though. I'm a sofa-type myself. :D
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Heraclitus was notoriously difficult to understand even in antiquity, and we only have his direct writings in fragments quoted by others, so it's hard to say much in detail.

The key seems to have been the concept of Flux, i.e. that everything is always changing—or perhaps that change itself was the only constant—which would have been something of a departure from most pre-Socratics, who were largely concerned with determining the essential truth of reality behind the phenomena that are apparent to the eye, which was usually couched in terms of one or more fundamental elements (fire, atoms, etc.).

One explanation for Plato is that he was trying to reconcile Heraclitus's observations regarding the changing nature of phenomena with Parmenides' claim that what truly exists is unchanging, unconditioned, imperishable, etc. Therefore he posited that phenomenal reality was somehow a collection of fleeting impressions of certain Forms that exist independently of those impressions but are ultimately the models that underlie them. Later Platonists would develop that into a full-fledged emanation theory, in which the true reality radiates "down" into successive levels of differentiation and individuation until you finally get to the realm of perceptible phenomena that we inhabit, which is a reflection of the perfect unity that is the true reality.

Laozi's brand of Daoism treats the Dao as the true reality that underlies perceptible phenomena, in a way that's similar to the pre-Socratics but is a bit more explicit in its ethical implications and a bit more sophisticated in its analysis of mental concepts as responsible for the construction of perceptible reality. It's also worth noting that it's framed as a process rather than a substance. It's hard to say much more, since Laozi is a cryptic work, and modern Daoists don't necessarily regard it as foundational to their practice.

Buddhist philosophy is similar to Platonism in that it initially tried to reconcile the apparent flux of perceptible reality with the idea that something had to exist underneath it all. Abhidharma is stuck somewhere between atomism and something like Platonic Forms. Mahayana philosophy eventually abandoned the search for the ultimately real, concluding that nothing in the perceptible world could ever fit those criteria. Instead Samsara is treated like Heraclitus's Flux or Plato's Becoming, whereas Nirvana is understood as something akin to Parmenides' That-Which-Is, Plato's Being (not the Forms, but more like the neo-Platonic One, only without the emphasis on singularity), etc. The key difference is that whereas Greek philosophy and even Daoism privilege the "ultimate" reality over the perceptible, in Mahayana thought they are both equally true, mutually dependent concepts. Thus even Nirvana is a conceptual model that one must not cling to.

These Indian, Chinese, and Greek philosophies all seem to have arisen independently around the same time, with any mutual influence occurring some centuries later.
 
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