"Born of water" - meaning what exactly?

[Muffled]

Moses is drawn out as a baby, so you might consider yourself to have been part of that if you are Moses disciple. The ark is another birth from the water, so you might consider yourself born of water if you are keeping the covenant of Noah. These are guesses.

Eden is born out of water, and the temple which faces East is patterned after Eden and contains the Ark. So if you are someone who goes to the temple and take your mikvehs as prescribed then you might call yourself born of water that way. That's another guess.

There is the birth of Nathan the general from Assyria who washes 7 times in the Jordan. That another birth from water. He is cleansed of leprosy, a condition which causes a person to be isolated and unable to participate in the festivals or the temple. He is made new and can serve the L-RD now. He comes to life in a sense.

I believe most of those are rebirths so they don't qualify but what verse do you have that Eden is born out of water?

 

[Muffled]

I agree.

What I meant by this is in regards of those who already have been baptized in the holy Spirit and repented of their sins. They should still be water baptized if they want to obey the words of Jesus Christ even though they already have been "born of the Spirit" and are children of God already.

I believe I agree and Jesus did it even though He had no sins to repent. I believe He did it to show that he agreed that sins should be repented and in fact He did preach repentance after that event.

 

[Muffled]

For those who, unlike me, take the view that the fourth gospel is in some way divinely authored, why do you think the writer of the 'born of water' section used a phrase which had never been used before in any writing which survives to this day?

From a secular point of view, it makes perfect sense.

I believe he was quoting Jesus.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Born of water is just spiritual mumbo jumbo probably inserted into the mouth of Jesus by hyper-pious forgers.

 

[Sand Dancer]

There are at least four interpretations of what "born of water", from the fourth gospel, means.

Which one, if any, do you go for and why not one of the others?

Adam was born of dust, but the rest of us were conceived and lived in a water environment during gestation. I take it as meaning our physical birth.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I believe most of those are rebirths so they don't qualify but what verse do you have that Eden is born out of water?

In Genesis 1 it is the division of water from water which brings forth dry land (of Eden). A major observation is that Eden is not the gift of the Nile, not fertilized by the goddess of that Nile which gives water, life and land to Egypt. It is exclusively not the gift of any Nile and is not watered by the Nile and is independent of Egypts resources and gods. Eden is made by separating water and is independently fertilized from the fountains of the deep (the uncreated depths). Egypt is watered by the Nile, but Eden is watered from the fountains of the deep. Both start with 'E' but from there they diverge. Like Moses, Eden is drawn out of water, preserved from the water rather than a gift of the water. It is the creation not of the gods but of the L-RD.

Eden is similar to the concept of the Red Sea where the waters are divided to produce land. Both stories are in the Pentateuch where also is the story of the Exodus from Egypt, and it is tied to the story of the parting of the Red Sea which is similar though not the same.

Another way of looking at Eden is that it is the creation of a people from among the nations. The nations are the surrounding waters, but out of them is created something new, something drawn out, something different. "Born of water" perhaps.

 

[David Young]

Post #25: What sense would it make for someone to say that being born was a prerequisite for something? Did the author of this part of the fourth gospel have a set of instructions for the unborn as well?

More to the point, of all the surviving pieces of Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew from up to that point, why is there no record of 'born of water' ever being used to describe physical birth?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

There are at least four interpretations of what "born of water", from the fourth gospel, means.

Which one, if any, do you go for and why not one of the others?

Hi David,

It is definitely referring to water baptism in the name of the one who shed the blood. The purpose is for remission or forgiveness of sins. Acts 2:38

According to the Messiah, to enter the kingdom of God somehow required being born of the water, and being filled with the Spirit of God. John 3:3-6

Peter was given the keys to the kingdom. Matthew 16:19 And he used those keys on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2:38 Notice how water baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit are both involved, matching what the Messiah said was required?

Hope this helps.

 

[Muffled]

Born of water is just spiritual mumbo jumbo probably inserted into the mouth of Jesus by hyper-pious forgers.

I believe the possibility of that is astoundingly remote.

 

[Muffled]

In Genesis 1 it is the division of water from water which brings forth dry land (of Eden). A major observation is that Eden is not the gift of the Nile, not fertilized by the goddess of that Nile which gives water, life and land to Egypt. It is exclusively not the gift of any Nile and is not watered by the Nile and is independent of Egypts resources and gods. Eden is made by separating water and is independently fertilized from the fountains of the deep (the uncreated depths). Egypt is watered by the Nile, but Eden is watered from the fountains of the deep. Both start with 'E' but from there they diverge. Like Moses, Eden is drawn out of water, preserved from the water rather than a gift of the water. It is the creation not of the gods but of the L-RD.

Eden is similar to the concept of the Red Sea where the waters are divided to produce land. Both stories are in the Pentateuch where also is the story of the Exodus from Egypt, and it is tied to the story of the parting of the Red Sea which is similar though not the same.

Another way of looking at Eden is that it is the creation of a people from among the nations. The nations are the surrounding waters, but out of them is created something new, something drawn out, something different. "Born of water" perhaps.

I believe Eden was formed by the Caucasian gods and near the Caucasus Mountains, This is around 5,000 bc so not connected to the origin of creation.

 

[Muffled]

Post #25: What sense would it make for someone to say that being born was a prerequisite for something? Did the author of this part of the fourth gospel have a set of instructions for the unborn as well?

More to the point, of all the surviving pieces of Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew from up to that point, why is there no record of 'born of water' ever being used to describe physical birth?

I believe there are prerequisites in life. For instance it is usual that clouds are a prerequisite for rain.

I believe Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and directing His statement to him in particular but we tend to generalize it to all people and the unborn are people also.

 

[David Young]

But why would you ever need to give an instruction where one of the requirements of following it is that you need to be born?

No such instruction appears elsewhere in the gospels, in the epistles, in the Tanakh or in the Apocrypha. The only reason I can see for thinking it means physical birth is the occult faith of the born-again Christians, where a sensation is the starting point of interpreting this part of the Bible.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

But why would you ever need to give an instruction where one of the requirements of following it is that you need to be born?

No such instruction appears elsewhere in the gospels, in the epistles, in the Tanakh or in the Apocrypha. The only reason I can see for thinking it means physical birth is the occult faith of the born-again Christians, where a sensation is the starting point of interpreting this part of the Bible.

Right - why would you need to state you need to be born?

Natural birth is what was meant when it mentioned being born of the flesh. John 3:6

Born of the water refers to water baptism in the name for the forgiveness of sins. Acts 2:38
Born of the Spirit refers to being filled with God's Holy Spirit as foretold in Joel 2:28 and mentioned in Acts 2:

 

[1213]

There are at least four interpretations of what "born of water", from the fourth gospel, means.

Which one, if any, do you go for and why not one of the others?

I believe the “Water” means the words of Jesus, because:

Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I don’t get thirsty, neither come all the way here to draw.” Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
John 4:13-16

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

 

[Muffled]

But why would you ever need to give an instruction where one of the requirements of following it is that you need to be born?

No such instruction appears elsewhere in the gospels, in the epistles, in the Tanakh or in the Apocrypha. The only reason I can see for thinking it means physical birth is the occult faith of the born-again Christians, where a sensation is the starting point of interpreting this part of the Bible.

I believe the theme is there in other expressions as well. From death into life, from darkness into light.

John 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”

 

[David Young]

That is not, in any shape or form whatsoever, an instruction to be born.

 

[Bree]

There are at least four interpretations of what "born of water", from the fourth gospel, means.

Which one, if any, do you go for and why not one of the others?

This is a good explanation from the WT

"born from water and spirit: Nicodemus was likely familiar with the baptisms performed by John the Baptist. (Mr 1:4-8; Lu 3:16; Joh 1:31-34) So when Jesus spoke about water, it is reasonable to assume that Nicodemus would have discerned that Jesus was referring to water used for baptism. Nicodemus would also have been familiar with the way the Hebrew Scriptures use the term “spirit of God,” that is, God’s active force. (Ge 41:38; Ex 31:3; Nu 11:17; Jg 3:10; 1Sa 10:6; Isa 63:11) Therefore, when Jesus used the word “spirit,” Nicodemus would have understood it to be holy spirit. Jesus’ own experience illustrates the point he made to Nicodemus. When Jesus was baptized in water, holy spirit descended upon him. So he was “born from water and spirit.” (Mt 3:16, 17; Lu 3:21, 22) At that time, God declared that Jesus was his Son, apparently indicating that he had brought forth Jesus as a spiritual son who had the prospect of returning to heaven. A follower of Jesus who is “born from water” is one who has turned away from his former course of life, repented of his sins, and been baptized in water. Those who are born from both “water and spirit” are begotten, or brought forth, by God to be sons of God with the promise of spirit life in the heavens and with the prospect of ruling in the Kingdom of God.—Lu 22:30; Ro 8:14-17, 23; Tit 3:5; Heb 6:4, 5.

Holy spirit does not descend on every christian who gets baptised. Some are born from Water and some are born from Water & Spirit depending on their future life prospects. If chosen to go to heaven to rule with Christ in the heavenly kingdom, you are given holy spirit at your baptism and therefore born from Water and Spirit.

 

[Triumph]

You are going to have to define the other interpretations in order to best answer your question. As for the born of water passage in John 3, I believe it will always refer to baptism by water. The main reasoning is when Jesus gets baptized in Matthew, He states that by getting baptized with John, they are fulfilling all righteousness. And then he saw the Spirit of God descend upon him like a dove. In similar speech to Nicodemus, Jesus says that unless a man is born again in the water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Many Biblical Christians think that if Jesus is referring to baptism than it is a contradiction to other passages in the bible where salvation is free and requires no works. Because they equate salvation as the same as entering the kingdom of God, they are forced to change the meaning of Born of Water as baptism to a symbolic baptism, where belief in Christ is enough. To me, Jesus didn't symbolically get baptized by John. He literally did. Then right after his meeting with Nicodemus he goes and baptizes with his disciples. The author of John and Matthew both clearly knew what Born of Water meant, regardless of whether Nicodemus knew what it meant or not. Water is of the Flesh (baptism), Spirit is Spirit (Holy Ghost).

There are only 12 Apostles so we should give no credibility to Paul that claims his lies glorify God.
I believe you are correct about the literal baptism, the 11th Commandment by God for salvation. We must be physically baptized forsaking belief in blood sacrifice for sin removal having sins washed away with merciful forgiveness, not the death of an innocent life. Jesus told us to "learn I desire mercy and not sacrifice".

Nicodemus sought Jesus at night because he did not want to be seen associating with Jesus in the daylight. Also he was walking in darkness without the light of God because he believed in blood sacrifice for sin removal. Belief in water baptism cleanses away sin but believing in it means being threatened by the temple leaders for not obeying their religious laws. Nicodemus saw Jesus did have the approval of God and was teaching truth and did want to join him but Nicodemus did not want to change his status with the temple so was desiring to not have to be baptized yet still be a disciple. Jesus was explaining that water baptism would make him a new person, reborn with a clean and merciful spirit. But Nicodemus did not want to forsake his temple traditions and feared retribution of the Jews so left Jesus in darkness without the Holy Spirit of God in him. Nicodemus was Lost, offered salvation but out of fear, forsake it as he decided to chose tradition over truth and bloody sacrifices over merciful baptism.

 

[Triumph]

I think there are several things that can be called "born of water". In my opinion the best is this:

Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
John 4:13-14

I have understood that water is the words and the spirit that can be transferred by the words. And the words can cause change in person so that he is "born anew".

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

A born-again child of God (kolumbus.fi)

Great post. Also note the well of Jacob is dry with no water of life in it. Jesus taught forsake the Hebrew religion and do not believe in the people that support it as they do not have the words of God in them. See Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of God in your beliefs then be thrown out with them. God is the God of the living not the dead. Those men died in their sins without resurrection. There is only one God but those men did not worship the God that created life on Earth.
Abraham invented his own Lord God to worship and his own words he said were from God but were not. The Living God, Father of Jesus, judges them unworthy of eternal life. To achieve eternal life follow Jesus and be water baptized.

 

[Triumph]

The physical water baptism of Matthew 3 was with respect to the baptism of repentance. The spiritual version is with respect to the "springling with clean water" of Ez 36:27, with respect to the house of Israel for them to be "cleansed", after they have been "gathered out of the nations" (Ez 36:24), which hasn't happened as of 10:46 A.M of today. You also need the baptism of the spirit (Mt 3:11). The symbolism of the baptism of water is the cleaning away of sins due to confessions of Ephraim and Judah (Hosea 5:15) and repentance, the same that is required to enter into the actual kingdom of God, whereas the combined "stick" of Judah, and the "stick" of Ephraim are combined on the land given to Jacob, cleansed (Ez 37:23) or "springled with clean water" (Ez 36:27) to be given a new spirit and heart (Ez 36:26) to "be careful to observe My ordinances" (EZ 36:27) under the reign of "My servant David" (Ez 37:24).

There is a more important baptism for the nations/Gentiles, the other "flock doomed for slaughter" of Zechariah 11:7. That will be the baptism by fire, in which the judgment of God will come to the nations/Gentiles after the reviving of Judah and Jerusalem (Joel 3:1-2), most often referred to Har-Magedon, the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24, which happens "immediately before" the coming of the son of man in the clouds (Matthew 24:29-30). The survivors from among the nations/Gentiles of this fire (great tribulation) will also confess that their fathers taught them nothing but falsehoods (Jeremiah 16:19).

Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel and Zechariah are prophets that speak in parables about the future not the past. They speak in symbolism about the final war on Earth.
Jeremiah explains in the final war "cease fire" (WW3 is the fire), survivors realize their fathers taught them falsehoods that their Christ, son of David would save them to establish a kingdom. The baptism by fire is the Devil's baptism because people have taken the mark of the Beast which is to agree to fight in a thermonuclear war.
WW3 destroys the EARTH that will become unable to sustain biological life.
Jesus leads people to the water of life. The Son of man, supporter of Abraham/David, denier that Jesus is the son of God, leads people to the eternal fire of self sustaining nuclear fission that covers the Earth with flesh burning radiation. He steals the name of Jesus Christ just like Jesus warns he will, the prince with nothing in him.
2 Gods,
The merciful true God has nothing to do with the final war and left Earth when people hung his Beloved Son on a cross for sins he did not commit like calling himself God's Son. God left with signs what is going to happen to Earth because Jesus was murdered and millions support the murder.
The other "God" is Lord God, the fake God Abraham invented and his supporters demand nuclear war to take what does not belong to them like a thief in the night.