Big Bang expanded into nothingness?

[ChristineM]

If space itself expanded, then is the domain of the expansion infinite nothingness?"

The universe has been measured as flat to 5 decimal places meaning, unless it begins to curve after those 5 decimal places, it is potentially infinite. I.e, i can expand for ever and not meet itself.

Now, what is it expanding into? A question without answer I'm afraid. Some guess infinite nothingness, some guess infinite space containing other universes*, some say our universe is creating its own space as it expands.

* I kind of like the idea of a multiverse. There is tentative evidence for this in the bruises on the CMB that suggest collision with other universes. And the bunches of galaxy's moving in the wrong direction away from the bruises.

 

[Pete in Panama]

...Just before the BB, when all the mass of the universe appears, spaces is so curved, it appears to be very close and very compact with the primordial atom of the BB.

We can't say "before the BB" because it's like saying that round circles can roll off the table but square circles stay in one place. There is no "square circle". A circle by definition is round. "Before" by definition can not precede the BB.

... the 2nd law states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. While an increase in entropy absorbs energy. This tells us the universe is aging and cannot go back to where it was born, since when it was born it had much less entropy and much more energy. The 2nd law prevents that from ever happening again. The cyclic models are based on perpetual motion. The second law tells us the universe will continue to evolve; age, until it goes away. A new universe will then have to appear all pumped up with the critical energy and low entropy; quanta.

Of course we can't know if the 2nd law is really how the universe works, it's just a model that's useful to us now. It calculates that the universe will reach a permanent heat death in 10^22 years --that's a long time. However, even though nobody knows what tomorrow will bring there's always the possibility that a jillion years from now some other law of thermodynamics may be offered that finds the entropy falling back to a reset level.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I always understood “space” that is expanding is the distance between two objects. The first three dimensions. Space expansion is simply the expansion of distance between the galaxies, no?

 

[dybmh]

they want to believe and what is.

"... they want to believe ..." Can you give an example? Or even better a few examples?

 

[Pete in Panama]

If there's any arrogance on my part, it's purely unintentional and unconscious. But consider a straight line emanating from a point in space. If it were possible to travel along that straight line, without making any changes in course, a heading of 0°, straight and level, are you saying that it would not be a straight line? If one follows that straight line all the way to the end of the expanse, to where there are no more stars and planets - no particles whatsoever - what would you see in front of you? What would be there to prevent you from going any further into the emptiness that lies beyond?

That's a fair question and I agree that it demands an answer.

You're talking about time, space, and motion. We are in a universe where there is a speed limit for cause and effect, it happens to be the speed of light. We need a speed limit because w/o it everything could happen all at once --some clown on one of the trillions of galaxies could end the universe and we'd be gone.

The faster we go the slower time goes. The universe is expanding. These are realities we can observe. If you went on your 0° heading you'd eventually be in part of the universe that will be moving very very fast (compared to us). You'd also be going a LOT slower. Eventually you'd cross that quantum limit and be going the speed of light and you'd stop. You'll have reached the limit of space because you time would stop.

That's how space can be limited w/ nothing beyond. Nothing, not even a place to draw a line into.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I always understood “space” that is expanding is the distance between two objects. The first three dimensions. Space expansion is simply the expansion of distance between the galaxies, no?

The distance between everything. But on the scale.of our eyesight it is incredibly small when it comes to anything that you can see with the naked eye.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

The distance between everything. But on the scale.of our eyesight it is incredibly small when it comes to anything that you can see with the naked eye.

In that case, isn’t space essentially omnipresent but multiplying? Therefore it isn’t really expanding into anything, just increasing?

 

[Subduction Zone]

In that case, isn’t space essentially omnipresent but multiplying? Therefore it isn’t really expanding into anything, just increasing?

That appears to be the case. The concepts involved are beyond me to a large degree.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I always understood “space” that is expanding is the distance between two objects. The first three dimensions. Space expansion is simply the expansion of distance between the galaxies, no?

Correct, and everything's moving away from everything else so that means that things farther away are moving FASTER away than closer things. Red-shifted. That's why the cosmic microwave background is now microwave even tho it may have originally started out as super-ultra-xrays.

 

[Stevicus]

That's a fair question and I agree that it demands an answer.

You're talking about time, space, and motion. We are in a universe where there is a speed limit for cause and effect, it happens to be the speed of light. We need a speed limit because w/o it everything could happen all at once --some clown on one of the trillions of galaxies could end the universe and we'd be gone.

The faster we go the slower time goes. The universe is expanding. These are realities we can observe. If you went on your 0° heading you'd eventually be in part of the universe that will be moving very very fast (compared to us). You'd also be going a LOT slower. Eventually you'd cross that quantum limit and be going the speed of light and you'd stop. You'll have reached the limit of space because you time would stop.

That's how space can be limited w/ nothing beyond. Nothing, not even a place to draw a line into.

Yeah, I can see this. It seems a bit counterintuitive, at least in my basic geometric understanding of a straight line and the idea that an object in motion tends to remain in motion - unless some force (such as gravity) stops it. (I also recall times in the past when they believed the sound barrier was impenetrable and that we'd never be able send objects outside of the Earth's atmosphere.)

But what is the physical force that stops one from traveling outside of that limit? Is it something akin to gravity on Earth? Is that what keeps everyone "inside" of space, just as we're ostensibly confined here to Earth? I mean, there'd have to be "something" to prevent us from traversing into "nothing," wouldn't there? And what would the "nothing" look like? Would it just be empty infinite blackness (as most people might understand space to be)?

 

[Pete in Panama]

"... they want to believe ..." Can you give an example? Or even better a few examples?

It's a mental limit. Sure, we all believe what we believe. We're all guilty of having a confirmation bias and we couldn't live w/o our prejudices because it makes thinking possible. My take is that it's not whether we're prejudiced or not, it's how we monitor and work around our prejudice that counts.

What I was talking about when I said "they want to believe" had to do w/ how we live and interact w/ time going by (for everyone everywhere) a day at a time, w/ movement being where ever what anyone can get away w/. I can walk down the road and if I want I can double my speed by running. I can double it again w/ a bicycle. Double it again w/ a car. That's how things work --it seems, but it's NOT how things work because there's a limit how fast I can go and there's also a limit how far I can go.

Mark Twain once said that while what u don't know can't hurt you, it's what you think u know for sure that isn't so that can kill u. Lots of folks "know" lots of things that just aren't true. Some think that they can down one more shot of booze & it won't hurt them, some believe in astrology, some believe they can be crabby if they want. There are those that believe that something could happen before the big bang or they believe they can go outside our universe. They can't and the something can't. Does this make sense?

 

[Pete in Panama]

Yeah, I can see this. It seems a bit counterintuitive, at least in my basic geometric understanding of a straight line and the idea that an object in motion tends to remain in motion - unless some force (such as gravity) stops it. (I also recall times in the past when they believed the sound barrier was impenetrable and that we'd never be able send objects outside of the Earth's atmosphere.)

But what is the physical force that stops one from traveling outside of that limit? Is it something akin to gravity on Earth? Is that what keeps everyone "inside" of space, just as we're ostensibly confined here to Earth? I mean, there'd have to be "something" to prevent us from traversing into "nothing," wouldn't there? And what would the "nothing" look like? Would it just be empty infinite blackness (as most people might understand space to be)?

The physical force that stops us from going faster than the speed of light is the fact that when we go faster our time slows down, and when we get to the speed of las we stop. The reason we can leave space by moving through space is just like how a ship can't leave the ocean by trying to keep sailing and more sailing. For a ship to go on land it has to stop sailing and get removed. For us to get out of our universe we'd need to stop moving though space and somehow get out of here. I haven't figured out that one either. Yet...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In another thread, the big bang expansion was breifly mentioned. A question was asked, rough paraphrase, "Didn't the big bang expand into infinite space?" The answer given was, also rough paraphrase, "No, space itself expanded." I did a tiny bit of reading on this, and I think I understand the idea. My question is, "If space itself expanded, then is the domain of the expansion infinite nothingness?"

I would say the answer is: 'Not nothingness' because the expanding spreading out of the heavens is God's purpose - Jeremiah 10:12; 42:5
God says He stretched out the heavens (Isaiah 45:12) and He established Earth to be inhabited (Isaiah 45:18)
Earth inhabited forever on a forever existing Earth - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; Psalm 104:5
So, God would have a reason for expansion of the heavens/space but not for emptiness.

 

[dybmh]

I would say the answer is: 'Not nothingness' because the expanding spreading out of the heavens is God's purpose - Jeremiah 10:12; 42:5
God says He stretched out the heavens (Isaiah 45:12) and He established Earth to be inhabited (Isaiah 45:18)
Earth inhabited forever on a forever existing Earth - Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; Psalm 104:5
So, God would have a reason for expansion of the heavens/space but not for emptiness.

Not infinite nothingness because "purpose" isn't "nothing". Love it! Thank you.

 

[Alien826]

As I understand it, the universe of space-time is all there is. It is expanding, yes, but it doesn't expand into anything, because there is nothing for it to expand into. That seems counter intuitive, but that's because we are used to being able to stand outside things and observe them. We can't do that with the universe, even conceptually. Another misconception is that objects stay the same size and the distance between them expands. Actually, everything, objects and all, expands together. Someone talked about two ants getting further apart and not being able to touch after a while. Actually the ants expand too, and they don't notice any difference. It's even misleading to talk about the universe expanding into "nothingness", because that tends to see nothingness as something.

If that's difficult to wrap one's head around, well, that's because it is!

 

[Pete in Panama]

As I understand it, the universe of space-time is all there is. It is expanding, yes, but it doesn't expand into anything, because there is nothing for it to expand into. That seems counter intuitive, but that's because we are used to being able to stand outside things and observe them. We can't do that with the universe, even conceptually. Another misconception is that objects stay the same size and the distance between them expands. Actually, everything, objects and all, expands together. Someone talked about two ants getting further apart and not being able to touch after a while. Actually the ants expand too, and they don't notice any difference. It's even misleading to talk about the universe expanding into "nothingness", because that tends to see nothingness as something.

If that's difficult to wrap one's head around, well, that's because it is!

That's exactly my take, that the current universe of space-time is a big thing we all got in common but I see more.

Most of us have much more that we can sense. Most of us have say, a sense of humor, a sense of justice, a feeling for right and wrong --these are all ideas that (pretty much) any one of us can come upon and anyone else can see the same thing separately, and independently come to the same conclusion. What I'm seeing is that our minds allow us to transcend far beyond the limits that our space/time imposes.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's exactly my take, that the current universe of space-time is a big thing we all got in common but I see more.
Most of us have much more that we can sense. Most of us have say, a sense of humor, a sense of justice, a feeling for right and wrong --these are all ideas that (pretty much) any one of us can come upon and anyone else can see the same thing separately, and independently come to the same conclusion. What I'm seeing is that our minds allow us to transcend far beyond the limits that our space/time imposes.

Since we can reflect God's image of: 'love, justice, wisdom and mercy' to varying degrees then anyone of us can come upon that same conclusion.
Yes, our minds allow us to transcend far beyond the limits that space/time imposes because ' eternity ' is built into us.
For each day we can think of we can endlessly count both forwards and backwards forever and ever.

 

[Brickjectivity]

That is exactly what I meant by infinite nothingness.

You may be interested in quickly looking over Robert Kuhn's "Levels of Nothing." Its a paper. There is ultimate nothing which represents the nothing you'd get if you excluded absolutely all other kinds of nothing you might think about (such as God and nothing else), and then there are levels under it such as nothing but Math, and then under that concepts and so on. I am neither for nor against his paper. I think its interesting.

In another thread, the big bang expansion was breifly mentioned. A question was asked, rough paraphrase, "Didn't the big bang expand into infinite space?" The answer given was, also rough paraphrase, "No, space itself expanded." I did a tiny bit of reading on this, and I think I understand the idea. My question is, "If space itself expanded, then is the domain of the expansion infinite nothingness?"

Big Bang can only say for sure that space is expanding in all directions, and this leads to the ideas that it may have originated at a point, that time is part of space...and the other implications of Big Bang.

What Big Bang does provide is a model of time for simulating the conditions leading to space and our solar system as we perceive them today. Its provides a starting time and epochs of time and a concept of the size of the universe. Everybody wants to know how big it is, how old it is, how fast its expanding, what its made of and what is going to happen to it. For number crunching purposes it helps if you can estimate the smallest the universe could have ever been and then use that to estimate its original age. That helps with lots of things such as attempting to plot the courses of galaxies in the past and trying to understand the texture of space (clumps vs homogeneous material) and so on.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Since we can reflect God's image of: 'love, justice, wisdom and mercy' to varying degrees then anyone of us can come upon that same conclusion.
Yes, our minds allow us to transcend far beyond the limits that space/time imposes because ' eternity ' is built into us.
For each day we can think of we can endlessly count both forwards and backwards forever and ever.

You're getting into the spiritual side of the issue, and while I'd be the last to argue against it my view is more toward the observable and measurable. I'm thinking about the pre-frontal lobes in our brains and the question of whether we have free will. My choice is yes, we do have free will and while there are some atheists who might insist that they're well programed machines, I say everyone has free will. That would have to mean that we have the ability to visualize the alternate universes of the various options that we can choose from --universes that collapse into the one we can select with our free will.

so while we all share a 3 spatial dimensions + 1 time dimension (that are interchangeable) we ourselves live in many universes.

 

[Valjean]

If there's any arrogance on my part, it's purely unintentional and unconscious. But consider a straight line emanating from a point in space. If it were possible to travel along that straight line, without making any changes in course, a heading of 0°, straight and level, are you saying that it would not be a straight line? If one follows that straight line all the way to the end of the expanse, to where there are no more stars and planets - no particles whatsoever - what would you see in front of you? What would be there to prevent you from going any further into the emptiness that lies beyond?

"Straight" is following the curvature of space.
Look through a super mega gargantu-vue telescope, straight, to the end of the universe, and you'd see the back of your head.