Biblical proof the Book of Mormon is True

[joeboonda]

Well, if it had already been spelled out there wouldn't be much need for further revelation, would there. We've just got the same story with more details.

I understand that is your belief. I simply see 2 different stories, although I understand you see them harmonize. I don't wish to argue extra-biblical revelation at the moment, but I understand what you are saying.

 

[joeboonda]

I don't talk in circles, i show where i get my beliefs, you just talk around it and avoid it like you're scared of it.

Me neither, i share my beliefs and the Bible verses i base those on. No avoidance, no fear. I share my beliefs in an open and honest and friendly manner, no insults or offenses intended.
Peace and Love,
Mike

 

[madhatter85]

I understand that is your belief. I simply see 2 different stories, although I understand you see them harmonize. I don't wish to argue extra-biblical revelation at the moment, but I understand what you are saying.

"Thou Fool that shall say; A Bible, we have a bible, and We need no more Bible..."

 

[joeboonda]

"Thou Fool that shall say; A Bible, we have a bible, and We need no more Bible..."

Its not nice to call someone a fool:

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

This verse in my Bible says it is enough for me to be thoroughly furnished for all good works, doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction:

2 Timothy 3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[DeepShadow]

"Thou Fool that shall say; A Bible, we have a bible, and We need no more Bible..."

Can we give negative frubals?

 

[DeepShadow]

I don't talk in circles, i show where i get my beliefs, you just talk around it and avoid it like you're scared of it.

MH, I'm going to try to say this in the spirit of love and kindness:

Your entire OP is based upon a circular argument. The Book of Mormon only fulfills Biblical prophecy insofar as one assumes the interpretation of Biblical texts as given in the Book of Mormon. Others have their own interpretations of these scriptures, and there's nothing in the Bible that says theirs is worse and ours is better. It's begging the question.

JB is also speaking from his own perspective, sure, but at least he admits it. Please try to do the same.

 

[madhatter85]

Its not nice to call someone a fool:

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

This verse in my Bible says it is enough for me to be thoroughly furnished for all good works, doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction:

2 Timothy 3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

i quoted a scripture verse,

and try reading the WHOLE VERSE.

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I'm not angry with you, I feel sorry for you and not without cause. and I only hope that one day your eyes are opened and you see past 3 or 4 words in each verse.

 

[madhatter85]

MH, I'm going to try to say this in the spirit of love and kindness:

Your entire OP is based upon a circular argument. The Book of Mormon only fulfills Biblical prophecy insofar as one assumes the interpretation of Biblical texts as given in the Book of Mormon. Others have their own interpretations of these scriptures, and there's nothing in the Bible that says theirs is worse and ours is better. It's begging the question.

JB is also speaking from his own perspective, sure, but at least he admits it. Please try to do the same.

never said that "thiers is worse" or that "ours is better" i'm pointing out the fact that he doesn't read the whole thing, he takes one scentence and applies it to whatever he wants to so he can feel better about it.

if you want to read a passage, or section of scripture and knwo the meaning, or the context in which it is given, you need to look at the whoel picture and not have tunnel vision.

 

[madhatter85]

Interpitations of things can only come when statements are made of an ambiguous nature.

If someome says during a clear day "The sky is blue" the only person that can disagree with him is someoen who is color blind, which is not an interpitation issue, it's just someone who doesn't see everything. or someo might try and say "It's light blue, or baby blue" or any other kind of blue. It's still blue.
when there is a storm that covers the sky, the sky is still blue, it's the clouds that are grey. only the ignorant would say "the sky changes color" or that the sky is "grey". they are looking in the wrong place.

 

[Katzpur]

I did not say Christ preached to the gentiles, but that the Gospel would be preached starting at Jerusalem and they were to preach this Gospel to the whole world. I believe the other sheep are the gentiles as plays out in the Bible.

But Jesus didn't say that His other sheep would hear His "gospel," His "message," or His "words." We all know the gentiles heard his "gospel," His "message," and His "words." What He said was that His other sheep would hear His voice. In other words, He would teach them.

They are minstring spirits. They have many roles, and they did give messages to people in the Bible it is true, I am simply asking where scripture was ever written in any way except as men were directly inpired by the Holy Spirit of God.

I can think of no example of scripture being written in any other way than by men being directly inspired by the Holy Spirit. That's how it always happens. That's how it happened in the Bible and that's how it happened in the Book of Mormon.

 

[madhatter85]

But Jesus didn't say that His other sheep would hear His "gospel," His "message," or His "words." We all know the gentiles heard his "gospel," His "message," and His "words." What He said was that His other sheep would hear His voice. In other words, He would teach them.

I can think of no example of scripture being written in any other way than by men being directly inspired by the Holy Spirit. That's how it always happens. That's how it happened in the Bible and that's how it happened in the Book of Mormon.

Right on.

 

[Katzpur]

All the scripture in the Bible was given to men by the Holy Spirit of God.

All scripture in the Book of Mormon was given to men by the Holy Spirit, as well.

No I don't. Where except the verse saying we will return to God does it directly, plainly teach this? The BIble says in Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. This says to me that Adam became a living soul when God breathed into him. I do believe God created Adam then Eve, and they up to our parents, etc. procreated us. God did not create us nor are we his offspring but our parent's offspring.

Hebrews 12:9 states, "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

Acts 17:29 explains, "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."

First of all, Mike, as the verse in Hebrews 12:9 clarifies, we each have a father of our flesh. We also have a Father of our spirit. We are the spiritual offspring of God, but the mortal offspring of our own parents.

Secondly, we would agree 100% that Adam became a living soul when God breathed life into his body. As a body without a spirit, Adam was not a living soul.

It is what Madhatter stated, I was answering her.

She's a he, by the way.

I would rather not get deeply into that now but will give an excerpt that explains a small part of why I belive the Bible is complete from creationists.org (you may read the rest yourself but I cannot post the link because much of the article-not what I am pasting-does attempt to refute Mormonism and I do not wish to disrespect you)

I appreciate your not posting the link. On the other hand, you shouldn't have to even get into a discussion of Mormonism in order to answer my question. If the Bible contains everything that God would have us know, surely it would make this point clear. I wasn't asking that you "get deeply into that now." I was asking for biblical evidence that tells us the Bible is complete, and it appears to me you don't have an answer for me.

There are no verses anywhere in the Bible that state there will be additional written revelations after the book of Revelation. Since Revelation deals with events clear up to the very last days, no additional revelations are needed. On the flip side, as we saw above, there are explicit warnings not to add or subtract anything to the last book of the Bible, Revelation. Additionally, several old and new testament books in the Bible do predict additional false revelations from Satan, demons and human false prophets including in the last days.

But Mike, even Evangelical scholars agree that Revelation was not the last book to be written, and that the books of the New Testament are not arranged chronologically. John, in fact, wrote his own gospel account after he wrote Revelation. I agree that no one is supposed to add to or take away from Revelation. Why do you believe that Jesus Christ himself called prophets? Why do you think He said that they would be rebuked? If He never intended to continue to speak to us through prophets, why on earth did He call them in the first place?

Good. The passage in Abraham speaks of 2 personages and the 2nd was angry and left his first estate. If this refers to the angel Lucifer, the Bible says he was cast out for exalting himself above God, not because he was angry for not being chosen to save man.

That's right. Lucifer was cast out of Heaven for exalting himself above God. He was angry with God for not allowing him to be our savior, but that fact is simply an example of his rebellious behavior. It was his attitude towards God that caused him to be cast out of Heaven.

The Bible says we were born children of darkness, wrath, and disobedience, dead in our sins, but are now children of light since we believed in Jesus.

None of the verses you quoted say that we were born children of darkness. Jesus said we must become as little children in order to enter into His Kingdom. Why would he want us to be like little children if they are also children of darkness? Even the Book of Mormon teaches that "the natural man is an enemy to God." You are assuming that little children are also enemies to God, but the Bible teaches otherwise.

 

[joeboonda]

i quoted a scripture verse,

and try reading the WHOLE VERSE.



I'm not angry with you, I feel sorry for you and not without cause. and I only hope that one day your eyes are opened and you see past 3 or 4 words in each verse.

Same here.

 

[joeboonda]

But Jesus didn't say that His other sheep would hear His "gospel," His "message," or His "words." We all know the gentiles heard his "gospel," His "message," and His "words." What He said was that His other sheep would hear His voice. In other words, He would teach them.

I can think of no example of scripture being written in any other way than by men being directly inspired by the Holy Spirit. That's how it always happens. That's how it happened in the Bible and that's how it happened in the Book of Mormon.

It is wrong to base a whole teaching on one small phrase when the Bible does not clearly say Jesus will go and preach to other people. Jesus preached the Kingdom of God to the Jews, his disciples took it to the world. The Bible clearly teaches how the world would "hear his voice", beginning in Jerusalem, the Gospel would be preached to all the world:

Romans 10
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Goye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Jesus ascended to Heaven and sent the Holy Spirit to give MEN the power to preach the Gospel beginning in Jerusalem and unto all the world. This is the Bible message.

You say the Holy Spirit directly inspired your scriptures to be written, but they were given by angels on gold plates. Here is what the Bible says about that:

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:11
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

 

[joeboonda]

All scripture in the Book of Mormon was given to men by the Holy Spirit, as well.

Through angels with golden plates...?

Hebrews 12:9

states, "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

Acts 17:29 explains, "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device."

First of all, Mike, as the verse in Hebrews 12:9 clarifies, we each have a father of our flesh. We also have a Father of our spirit. We are the spiritual offspring of God, but the mortal offspring of our own parents.

Secondly, we would agree 100% that Adam became a living soul when God breathed life into his body. As a body without a spirit, Adam was not a living soul.

Right, when God breathed life into his body he became a living soul. Not when God sent his spirit into his body from Heaven, but when God breathed into him. Thus Adam was able to pass this to all men. So, God would be the "Father of spirits" in the sense that he started it. He created the first man who procreated us. In a sense we are God's children made in his image, but because of the fall we are born spiritualy dead. In the Acts scripture you quoted Paul says we are God's children, true, just above that it says: 17: 26 From one man he made all the people of the world. Now they live all over the earth. While in the sense that we are God's children in that he created Adam then us in his image, the Bible clearly teaches that those who have trusted Christ were once children of wrath, darkness and disobedience. It keeps saying, and such were you, or in times past you walked, etc. but now are translated out of darkness into the kindgom of light. I am not saying children go to Hell, for I believe the kingdom of Heaven is made up of such. But when they come to the understanding that they are sinners in need of a Saviour, they become responsible for accepting or rejecting Jesus so they may become adopted into the Kingdom of LIght. So, the term children of God in a broad sense may include everyone as having been created by God through Adam and so on, but in another sense the scriptures I had posted are about us having been translated out of the Kingdom of Darkness into the Kingdom of Light, adopted, where before we were not.

She's a he, by the way.

Oops, sorry, my apologies!!!

I appreciate your not posting the link. On the other hand, you shouldn't have to even get into a discussion of Mormonism in order to answer my question. If the Bible contains everything that God would have us know, surely it would make this point clear. I wasn't asking that you "get deeply into that now." I was asking for biblical evidence that tells us the Bible is complete, and it appears to me you don't have an answer for me.

But Mike, even Evangelical scholars agree that Revelation was not the last book to be written, and that the books of the New Testament are not arranged chronologically. John, in fact, wrote his own gospel account after he wrote Revelation. I agree that no one is supposed to add to or take away from Revelation. Why do you believe that Jesus Christ himself called prophets? Why do you think He said that they would be rebuked? If He never intended to continue to speak to us through prophets, why on earth did He call them in the first place?

The Bible does make it clear that it contains all we need to be thorougly furnished for all good works, doctrine, etc. While some argue Revelation was not written in 95A.D. I believe it surely was, when John was old, after his ministry, after his persecution when he was exiled to the Isle of Patmos. One thing is that Revelation speaks of the end of all things, it wraps everything up, and says not to add or take away from it. As far as Ephesians 4:11 where he gave some apostles, some prophets, etc. we define these differently. I don't believe their are apostles anymore, nor prophets in the O.T. sense:

The word Prophet comes from the Greek prophemi, which means "to speak forth." A prophet is one who speaks for God. This often involved statements about God's intentions for the future, but prediction is incidental to the prophet's role, not essential. 1 Cor. 14:29, where the churches are instructed to "pass judgment" on prophetic utterances, proves that the NT prophets were not like those in the Old Testament. The OT prophet seems more parallel to the NT apostle. So NT prophets were not so much those who gave God's Word (that would be the apostles) as those with a special insight from God in applying his Word. Prophecy seems then to have been more a gift than a recognized office. In so far as it was an office, it seems to have ceased along with the apostles; the gift continues to function informally in the church. --Dr. Don T. Williams

I ran up against this "extra-biblical revelation" thing with the tongues movement. I simply believe Paul and the other apostles in that day were given the New Testament message and it was canonized and that it is complete. So, I don't ramble on, here is a link that explains it a bit: Reason #13--The danger of claiming extra-biblical revelation

That's right. Lucifer was cast out of Heaven for exalting himself above God. He was angry with God for not allowing him to be our savior, but that fact is simply an example of his rebellious behavior. It was his attitude towards God that caused him to be cast out of Heaven.

I have to agree to disagree here. Nowhere in my Bible is this idea that God chose Jesus over Lucifer to save man even hinted at. If you believe it is inspired then so be it.

 

[joeboonda]

Hi, all. Just typing... I know we have differences in beliefs about extra-biblical revelation and whether we were spirits before we were born and all that. I have some understanding of why you believe what you do and respect it, and I hope that is reciprocal. I was reading a verse the other day, and I was wondering what you make of my thoughts on it. I understand (I think) that one idea you hold is that as offspring of God there is a hope to one day become gods, (not above God), but, since we are made in his image, (as I DO believe we shall be LIKE him in many ways), there is this hope of achieving godhood in your faith. I think I am correct on that, I think Jesus when he said he was the Son of God said, are ye not all gods, which would lead us to think that we are all gods, although I don't know that to be the case. Anyhow the verse I read, where the serpent lied to Eve, was this:

Genesis 3

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I was reading about the New Age Movement, and they tell people they are gods. I am wondering, this idea that we may be as gods, or are gods. or will be gods, could it be the oldest lie told to man? Is this godhood something we should be striving for or should we simply strive to please the God who has redeemed us. As a Christian I have been taught to beware of teachers who teach, like the New Agers, that we are gods or can be. What are your thoughts on this idea? (shoot, I realize I got way off topic, you can move or erase this if need be)

Thanks,

Mike

 

[SoyLeche]

Hi, all. Just typing... I know we have differences in beliefs about extra-biblical revelation and whether we were spirits before we were born and all that. I have some understanding of why you believe what you do and respect it, and I hope that is reciprocal. I was reading a verse the other day, and I was wondering what you make of my thoughts on it. I understand (I think) that one idea you hold is that as offspring of God there is a hope to one day become gods, (not above God), but, since we are made in his image, (as I DO believe we shall be LIKE him in many ways), there is this hope of achieving godhood in your faith. I think I am correct on that, I think Jesus when he said he was the Son of God said, are ye not all gods, which would lead us to think that we are all gods, although I don't know that to be the case. Anyhow the verse I read, where the serpent lied to Eve, was this:

Genesis 3

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I was reading about the New Age Movement, and they tell people they are gods. I am wondering, this idea that we may be as gods, or are gods. or will be gods, could it be the oldest lie told to man? Is this godhood something we should be striving for or should we simply strive to please the God who has redeemed us. As a Christian I have been taught to beware of teachers who teach, like the New Agers, that we are gods or can be. What are your thoughts on this idea? (shoot, I realize I got way off topic, you can move or erase this if need be)

Thanks,

Mike

You mean like Christ? John 10:34-35

 

[SoyLeche]

Not to mention the Psalmist: Psalms 82:6

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

On the one hand,

It is wrong to base a whole teaching on one small phrase when the Bible does not clearly say Jesus will go and preach to other people.

Why should the fact that the Bible doesn't clearly state it matter, when the Gospels themselves do say that the Bible is far from a complete record of everything that Jesus did?

John 21:25, the last verse in the last chapter of the last Gospel:

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

On the other hand,

Katzpur, I think it's overly literal to assume that "they shall hear my voice" must mean Jesus physically talking, and not the more metaphoric spreading of His Gospel that joeboonda talks about... especially when the quote in question is a metaphor anyway (unless you think you literally are a sheep, that is ).

 

[SoyLeche]

On the other hand,

Katzpur, I think it's overly literal to assume that "they shall hear my voice" must mean Jesus physically talking, and not the more metaphoric spreading of His Gospel that joeboonda talks about... especially when the quote in question is a metaphor anyway (unless you think you literally are a sheep, that is ).

She has a reason to be:

3 Nephi 15 verses 21-24