Biblical Mary!

[Dimi95]

What does that mean in English?

What does the Nicene creed say?

"I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.

Amen."

See the bolded please

 

[jimb]

Correct
But Catholic Church alone is no denomination.

Semantics. If a person says "Catholic", everyone knows what they mean.

 

[jimb]

What does the Nicene creed say?

"I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.

Amen."

See the bolded please

So what? "catholic" (small c) means "universal".

 

[Dimi95]

Semantics. If a person says "Catholic", everyone knows what they mean.

In this matter is 'all-embracing'.


Seems that you don't know much about etymology and its use.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Catholic "Church" today is a denomination. There are others, e.g., Orthodox, Protestant.

Correct. The Christian church has tens of thousands of denominations today, almost all of them Protestant sects. The Catholic church is simply the largest group of Christians.

But this was not the case in the early Church, which is what we were discussing.

 

[Dimi95]

So what? "catholic" (small c) means "universal".

So what if it is small

When it entered the English language in the sixteenth century, catholic simply meant "general" or "common."

Catholic - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms

When capitalized, Catholic refers to the Catholic Church. With a lower-case "c," catholic means "universal" and "inclusive." If you listen to anything from hip-hop to Baroque, you have catholic taste in music.

www.vocabulary.com

When it was written in Greek it had different meaning

 

[Dimi95]

So what? "catholic" (small c) means "universal".

https://christthesavioroca.org/files/2020-Resurrection-Classes/The-Nicene-Creed-of-325.pdf

Read the Original Nicene Creed.

 

[jimb]

In this matter is 'all-embracing'.


Seems that you don't know much about etymology and its use.

And you lack clear understanding.

 

[Dimi95]

And you lack clear understanding.

All good.

No need to discuss it further

 

[jimb]

Correct. The Christian church has tens of thousands of denominations today, almost all of them Protestant sects. The Catholic church is simply the largest group of Christians.

But this was not the case in the early Church, which is what we were discussing.

That is just your biased opinion. Have a look at the beginning of Revelation; there is no mention of "Catholic". Have a look at Paul's epistles to the various churches; there is no mention of "Catholic". In fact, there is no mention of "Catholic" anywhere in the Bible.

I assume that you're a Catholic and thereby slant your reasoning, but what you claim simply is not the case.

 

[Dimi95]

The first Biblical reference to the word catholic is found in Acts 9:31 when speaking about 'the church throughout [all] Judea, Galilee, and Samaria…'.

The words 'throughout' and 'all' are
-καθ (κατά)
-ὅλης (ὅλος)
which form the word καθολικός.

The earliest historical use of the word, in the context of the Church, is found in one of the letters of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written around A.D. 107, where he writes:
"Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude (of the people) also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

From here on the word 'catholic' was used in reference to mean 'orthodoxy'
ὀρθόδοξος - orthódoxos
from ὀρθός,orthós - straight
δόξα,dóxa - opinion

This means that it is opposed to the non-orthodox heretics who were then by definition not catholic as they were not 'according to the whole' which was, as it is writen in Jude:
'the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints'

The Catholic Church, in its original and Apostolic sense, would have meant the entirety of the Body of Christ across the world, which means that all the believers wherever they may be, rather than it being 'universal' in the physical sense that the institution of church should be all encompassing (like as an official, global institution that all must attend).

The development of doctrine about Jesus after Paul's death, with all its commonalities and unifying features, is seen as an early form of Catholicism which begins in Ignatius (outside of the New Testament) and continues to grow and spread as time goes on.

The difference may be subtle, but it’s an important one.

 

[jimb]

In this matter is 'all-embracing'.


Seems that you don't know much about etymology and its use.

I don't know anything about etymology? LOL! However, that is not the subject being discussed. If you want to go off on an unrelated tangent, I suggest that you start another thread.

We have gone far enough away from "Biblical Mary", the OP subject, without throwing in the etymology of a word.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That is just your biased opinion. Have a look at the beginning of Revelation; there is no mention of "Catholic". Have a look at Paul's epistles to the various churches; there is no mention of "Catholic". In fact, there is no mention of "Catholic" anywhere in the Bible.

I assume that you're a Catholic and thereby slant your reasoning, but what you claim simply is not the case.

As I've reminded folks many, many times, NO, I'm not Catholic. I'm not even a Christian. I'm Jewish. I have NO DOG IN THIS RACE. It really DON"T CARE about intra-Christian debates. I get no personal benefit from early Christians being Catholic just as I get no personal benefit from Thomas Jefferson writing the Declaration.

My ONLY concern in this matter is that history be correctly represented.

You, on the other hand, have a deep emotional investment in my being wrong, because if you admit that I'm correct, it will require you to make considerable changes in your religious views.

Basically, if you want to talk about bias, look in the mirror.

 

[Dimi95]

I don't know anything about etymology? LOL!

Sorry , but in this case you are wrong.

However, that is not the subject being discussed.

Well , you sure try to object what is very obvious here.

If you want to go off on an unrelated tangent, I suggest that you start another thread.

I just answered the false dichotomy.

We have gone far enough away from "Biblical Mary", the OP subject, without throwing in the etymology of a word.

I agree , i have nothing more to say

 

[jimb]

As I've reminded folks many, many times, NO, I'm not Catholic. I'm not even a Christian. I'm Jewish. I have NO DOG IN THIS RACE. It really DON"T CARE about intra-Christian debates. I get no personal benefit from early Christians being Catholic just as I get no personal benefit from Thomas Jefferson writing the Declaration.

My ONLY concern in this matter is that history be correctly represented.

You, on the other hand, have a deep emotional investment in my being wrong, because if you admit that I'm correct, it will require you to make considerable changes in your religious views.

Basically, if you want to talk about bias, look in the mirror.

I am a Jew who, unlike yourself, knows that Jesus is God's Messiah.

Obviously, you do care about intra-Christian debates, since you are debating Christian subjects. Otherwise, why are you here???

You claim that your sole interest is correct history, yet your posts clearly show otherwise. You obviously have a deep emotional investment in my being wrong. When you admit that I'm correct, you will make considerable changes in your flawed religious views.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am a Jew who, unlike yourself, knows that Jesus is God's Messiah.

Either your mother is a Jew, making you a Jew who has gone apostate, or your mother is not a Jew, and you are just another imposter Jew.

 

[jimb]

I am a Jew who was found by the Messiah Yeshua.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am a Jew who was found by the Messiah Yeshua.

If your mother was a Jew, then you are a Jew who is apostate. If your mother is not a Jew, then you are not a Jew.

 

[jimb]

If your mother was a Jew, then you are a Jew who is apostate. If your mother is not a Jew, then you are not a Jew.

I AM a Jew. Both my parents (and grandparents and great-grandparents etc.) were Jews and I was Bar Mitzvah at age 13.

I am a completed Jew because I have been born again into God's kingdom and have accepted Yeshua as my Savior. Of course, you know that He was a Jew, as were all his His disciples. And as a human, He is of the line of David.

If you consider me to be apostate, I simply don't care.

P.S. If using God's name is wrong, why do you use it in your avatar?

 

[Kathryn]

The Catholic "Church" today is a denomination. There are others, e.g., Orthodox, Protestant.

There are actually at least 30,000 denominations, mostly protestant and mostly using the same bible that catholic bishops determined to be canonical way more than 1500 years ago. Why the quotation marks, by the way?