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Biblical interpretation vs evidence

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by JerryL, Sep 6, 2005.

  1. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Sorry Deut - unless you disagree with the notes.

    40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

    Defender's Notes:
    Hebrew khug is translated "compassed" in Job 26:10 and "compass" in Proverbs 8:27. All three, in context, clearly refer to the sphericity of the earth.
     
  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    It comes under the category of he said/she said ... unless Wikipedia is YOUR bible.
     
  3. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    I do disagree with the inference that anyone at the time of the writing interprted it the way it is now. I think "context" in this cases is the scientific awareness that the Earth is a globe.
     
  4. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Compare sources? Good idea. Where's your source that "science" thought that the world was flat in 1492? I asked before, you've not answered.
     
  5. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    The claim was that "Christopher Columbus didn't think so based on Isaiah 40:22."

    That claim can be true or false irrespective of the meaning of Isaiah 40:22. If you have evidence that Columbus held the position that he did because of (i.e., "based on") that particular scripture, please present it. Otherwise, please stop muddying the waters.
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    How special ...
    • NLT - He created the horizon when he separated the waters; he set the boundaries for day and night.
    • NKJV - He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters, At the boundary of light and darkness.
    • NASB - He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters At the boundary of light and darkness.
    • RSV - He hath encompassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
    • Webster - A limit He hath placed on the waters, Unto the boundary of light with darkness.
    • Young - He hath traced a fixed circle over the waters, unto the confines of light and darkness.
    • Darby - He hath described a boundary upon the face of the waters, Unto the confines of light and darkness.
    • ASV - He has described a boundary on the surface of the waters, And to the confines of light and darkness.
    • HNV - He has described a boundary on the surface of the waters, And to the confines of light and darkness.
    • NET - He marks out the horizon on the surface of the waters as a boundary between light and darkness.
    • LXX - He has encompassed the face of the water by an appointed ordinance, until the end of light and darkness.
    [​IMG]

    What is there about this the clearly refers to sphericity?
    :rolleyes:
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Again, how special ...
    • NLT - I was there when he established the heavens, when he drew the horizon on the oceans.
    • NKJV - When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
    • NASB - When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
    • RSV - When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
    • Webster - When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
    • Young - In His preparing the heavens I [am] there, In His decreeing a circle on the face of the deep,
    • Darby - When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he ordained the circle upon the face of the deep;
    • ASV - When he established the heavens, I was there: When he set a circle upon the face of the deep,
    • HNV - When he established the heavens, I was there; When he set a circle on the surface of the deep,
    • NET - When he established the heavens, I was there; when he marked out the horizon over the face of the deep,
    • LXX - When he prepared the heaven, I was present with him; and when he prepared his throne upon the winds
    When we peruse the The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon for a definition we read ...
    Definition
    1. circle, circuit, compass
    2. (BDB) vault (of the heavens)
    ==========
    Again, what is there about this the clearly refers to sphericity?
     
  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Read Isaiah 40:22 in it's context, in the King James. God is sitting on the circle, above the Earth, expanding the Universe.

    You people who beg for evidence and clarity ... what does that show me?
     
  9. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    That the Earth, being flat, has an "above".
     
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Proverbs 8:27-28 = WHEN HE PREPARED THE HEAVENS, I WAS THERE: WHEN HE SET A COMPASS UPON THE FACE OF THE DEPTH: WHEN HE ESTABLISHED THE CLOUDS ABOVE: WHEN HE STRENGTHENED THE FOUNTAINS OF THE DEEP:

    Let's see now --- heavens --- depth --- clouds above --- fountains of the deep

    Must be talking about the vertical axis, ya think?
     
  11. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Yes, things stacked above one another, like a hamburger... which is circular and not a sphere.

    Well actually, only one of your words "clouds above" mentions a location. Everything else just says that stuff exists.

    Again, in fact, the words don't make sense for a sphere. The colouds are in the apmosphere which *surrounds* the Earth.
     
  12. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Are you saying that McDonald's proves the Earth is round???

    Well, IHOP (Int'l House of Pancakes) proves it's flat, then.
     
  13. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Again, from the Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies

    Circle of the Earth

    Hebrew Text


    The phrase of Isaiah 40:22, "the circle of the earth" is very controversial. There are five main views of this phrase. The first interpretation says that the word "circle" means "sphere" indicating that the earth is a sphere. This view seems most unlikely since we have all ready seen that the Hebrew word gh means "circle," and it seems very remote that it means "sphere" because of the context, and there is a better Hebrew word for "sphere," rwd. In Isaiah 22:18 the word rwd is translated "ball." If the LXX translators understood gh as "sphere," they would have used the Greek word sfairoeides. Plugging the meaning of "sphere" into every passage that gh occurs will result in awkward interpretations.

    The second interpretation is that the earth is a round flat disk. Although the ancient world thought the earth was round and flat, this phrase seems to refer to the shape the vaulted heavens above the earth from which the inhabitants look like grasshoppers.

    The third view, which is set forth by Seybold, is that "circle" refers to the ring of the ocean that surrounds the earth. This is mainly based on the supposed meaning of the word guros used in the LXX for gwj.

    The fourth interpretation is that "circle" refers to the vault like sky over the earth. This seems to be partly right as well as the next view where "circle" refers to the horizon. It may be best to combine theses two views so that "circle" refers to the circle of the horizon that arches up over the earth. From the top of this dome God looks down to see the inhabitants on earth as small as grasshoppers. In the later part of this same verse (Isa.40:22) the heavens are described like a curtain and a tent. There seems to be a descriptive parallelism of the heavens in this poetic verse.

    Stadelmann (1970, 42) states that gwj refers to the horizon which was the boundary between earth and heaven, and indicates how the heavenly dome was linked with the earth. In Job 26:10 gwj is the boundary between light and darkness. It is the circular line that separates the light of heaven from the darkness under the ocean and earth. In the ancient world the horizon prevented the earth from being flooded by primeval waters by holding the sky and the earth firmly together (Ibid, 43). In Job 22:14 it seems that the gwj is more than the horizon, and includes the vault of heaven as well. This seems to be the case in Isaiah 40:22 as well. Therefore, gwj is the part for the whole of heaven in certain passages in Job and Isaiah. This would be called "Synecdoche of the Part" by Bullinger (1968, 640, see also 892).

    In Isaiah 66:1 it says, "Thus saith the LORD, the heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool." The imagery of Isaiah 66 and 40 shows clearly that gwj means the vaulted heavens.

    Delitzsch translates Isaiah 40:22 as follows: "He who is enthroned above the vault of the earth, and its inhabitants resemble grasshoppers; who has spread out the heavens like gauze, and stretched them out like a tent-roof to dwell in" (Keil and Delitzch 1976, 7:152).

    In Isaiah 40:22 the verb b?y means, "to sit or dwell." This same verb and preposition lu is used in other OT passages. In Exodus 11:5 it says, "Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne" (also Ex. 12:29). Second Chronicles 18:18 says, "I saw the Lord sitting upon his throne" Psalm 2:4 says, He that sitteth in the heavens" Psalm 123:1 says, "O thou that dwellest in the heavens." Isaiah 6:1 says, "I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne." It seems clear that the Lord sits, or dwells on his throne in Heaven, and not on the circular earth or river encircling the earth. The verb b?y "to sit" plus the preposition lu means, "to sit on" not "to sit over or above."

    It seems that the "circle of the sea" is where the sky and sea meet at the horizon; the "circle of the earth" is where the sky and earth meet at the horizon and arching above; and the "circle of heaven" begins where the horizon is and arching above. The "foundations of heaven" are where the sky meets the earth at the horizon.

    Akkadian Literature

    There is an important Babylonian world map that depicts their view of the universe (Cuneiform Texts from Babylonian Tablets in the British Museum 1906, part xxii, pl. 48; BM 92687). Unger describes this world map in his book Babylon (1931; in German). A good English translation of this map is by Wayne Horowitz (1989, 147-165). The earth is seen as a circle within a circle with Babylon at the center. It seems clear that the Babylonians viewed the earth as flat and circular in shape.

    Sargon of Akkad is a third millennium king who was said to conquer the whole world in the work The Sargon Geography which states," Anaku and Kaptara, the lands across the upper Sea, Dilmun and Magan, the lands across the Lower Sea, and the lands from sunrise to sunset, the sum total of all the land, which Sargon, the king of the Univer[se] conquered three times" (Horowitz, 1989, 161; Garyson AFO 25, 62:A 41-44).

    The Samas Hymn which is written to the Sun-god says, "You climb to the mountains surveying the earth, You suspend from the heavens the circle of the lands" (kip-pat matati (kur.kur) ina qi-rib same’saq-la-a-ta; Lambert 1960, 126-7).

    In the Assyrian Royal Inscriptions (Grayson 1972, 105-109) there are many references to the "four quarters" (of the earth). The Royal inscription of Tukulti-Ninurta says:

    Tukulti-Ninurta, king of the universe, king of Assyria, strong king, king of the four quarters, chosen of Ashur, vice-regent of Ashur, the king whose deeds are pleasing to the gods of heaven (and) underworld and to whom they allotted the four corners of the earth, (the king whom) they allowed to always exercise rule in the (four) quarters and who conquered all those who did not submit to him (Grayson 1972, 1:105).

    The phrase "king of the four quarters" according to Grayson (1972, 1:4) is "the Sumero-Akkadian expression for 'king of the world'." Grayson goes on to say, "The four 'quarters' or 'coasts' are approximately identical with the cardinal points of the compass and are the extremities of the world (which was believed to be a disc) projecting out into the primeval sea (which was believed to surround the world disc)."

    The phrase "four corners of the earth" which in Akkadian is kap-pat tu-bu-qa-at erbitti, can literally be translated "the circle of the four corners" (Grayson 1972, 105; CAD K, 397-400). This is a clear reference to the earth being circular. It seems strange that a circle would also have corners, but they meant the extremities in the four cardinal directions.​
     
  14. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    So I sing the sad song some more:

    Since you're so slick at saying what it shouldn't say; say what it should say then?
     
  15. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Duwr (Isa 22:18)
     
  16. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    It is sad to see someone so proud of their contempt for scholarship. I care little what you say so long as you don't utter ignorant absurdities as if they're facts.
     
  17. Fade

    Fade The Great Master Bates

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    Firstly, it's poetic so is hardly a solid base from which to assert that it is factual.

    secondly, The circle they are refering to is clearly 2d and not 3d or spherical. If it wasn't why use the word 'circle' and not 'sphere'?

    thirdly, The last line refers to a 'tent to dwell in'. This implies that the circle is the ground or a flat surface.

    Lastly, A compass is a tool that only works in two dimensions. To say that using the word 'compass' implies sphericity is baseless. In fact the use of the word compass only adds weight to the argument that the circle being refered to is infact flat.
     
  18. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Im sorry, I don't mean to laugh but I thought your quote was funny :biglaugh:
     
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  19. Fade

    Fade The Great Master Bates

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    can anybody give me a link to the thread that resulted in AV1611 being banned. I'd love to know what happened.

    thanks
     
  20. Bennettresearch

    Bennettresearch Politically Incorrect

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    Thanx for the article Jayhawker,

    Fade, Hi. It tis a rumor that they decided that JerryL and Av1611 would become a comedy act.

    Ok Jerry,

    Have you read about Dunbar Goldfarb who fell off the edge of the Earth in his 1888 expedition in the Antarctic? DO your research!!!
     
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