Bible Study In Public Schools Up For Vote

[Katzpur]

I may not KNOW what your opinions are on the subject, but I certainly BELIEVE that I do.

And I'd say that chances are pretty high that you're wrong. I have never believed that the policy banning Black men to hold the priesthood was "ordained by God." I don't believe that the Church's current policies pertaining to LGBT individuals are "ordained by God" either.

Did you guess right?

 

[Prestor John]

There should have been no theories, postulates, opinions, hypotheses, or whatever term makes you feel better at night, in the first place. There is no justification for racism period(like beating your wife). And, only a moron would believe, let alone think, that anyone is infallible.

And I'd say that chances are pretty high that you're wrong. I have never believed that the policy banning Black men to hold the priesthood was "ordained by God." I don't believe that the Church's current policies pertaining to LGBT individuals is "ordained by God."

Did you guess right?

And I, as a member of the same Church, believe that both were ordained of God.

The LDS Church is not as stringent as other religions. The leaders of the Church do not claim to know everything.

There are core doctrines that are iron-clad, but members are free to pursue their own learning and come to their own understanding.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

And I'd say that chances are pretty high that you're wrong. I have never believed that the policy banning Black men to hold the priesthood was "ordained by God." I don't believe that the Church's current policies pertaining to LGBT individuals are "ordained by God" either.

Did you guess right?

I seriously doubt it. How does one go about knowing if a GOD "ordained" anything? It is no different than another useless idiom, "the Devil made me do it". Just like most cults or belief systems, the transference of personal responsibility for ones behavior to an unquestionable, unfalsifiable, all-knowing entity, is always the same. Obedience and order must be maintained above all. You can do nothing but hope that a bunch of old men, clinging to their own skewed version of self-importance, will receive some revelation to right their own moral wrong. But revelation came only in the form of a Government threatening to take money away, and change religious status, to right that wrong. No human being can ever know, or verify, what is or isn't ordained by a God. You simply follow the wisdom, experience, and orders of your leaders. You then spin-doctor the past to save face. The early missionaries of the church of LDS were no different than many of the greedy secular opportunists that followed. They would lie, plunder, kill(directly or indirectly), exploit, divide, and usurp power from the peaceful natives, under the guise of saving their soul and teaching them about God. When they tried to fight back the demands and encroachments into their lives, the army was called in to pacify them and protect their own citizens. Natives loose! This scenario has played out time and time again, in many Latin American a African countries throughout our early history. They too felt that their actions were "ordained by God".

I did expect you to admit that you don't believe that the banning of Blacks from priesthood was "ordained by God"(unlike your other member here). Because this would mean that God was not a loving, benevolent, and all-forgiving God. Or, would at least imply that not all men were created in the image of God. It would also expose the latent agenda of Mormon leaders, EXCLUSIVITY. Unfortunately, your view is in the minority.

Forty years on, most Mormons still believe the racist temple ban was God's will - Religion News Service

What would have surprised me, if you or your leaders would have issued a public apology for condoning such racist practices and teachings by the church. They haven't. It should not have taken the changing of social values and an entire Government to have influenced the decision to change. I would have also been surprised if the racist words were totally removed from the Book of Mormons. They haven't. What I got was expected: Parroting the acknowledgement of an excuse. Regarding LGBTQ equality and Mormonism? This group is regulated under the rules of sexual conduct. Those that do not act on their sexual orientation are fine. Those that do act will be on probation, disfellowshipped, and eventually excommunicated from the church("They also lose the eternal ties that bind them to their families and their church"). Nothing to do with being "ordained by God". It is simply "ordained" by the leaders.

LGBTQ Issues & the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints | Human Rights Campaign

So yes, I guess I guessed right. But I still don't KNOW you.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

And I, as a member of the same Church, believe that both were ordained of God.

The LDS Church is not as stringent as other religions. The leaders of the Church do not claim to know everything.

There are core doctrines that are iron-clad, but members are free to pursue their own learning and come to their own understanding.

You have every right to choose the kind of members you want in your club, but just don't call your club religious, claim tax exemption, or assert that it is open to all. Unless you KNOW, not BELIEVE what is specifically ordained by a God, you are simply expressing your own core beliefs and views, and asserting that God agrees with you. These members you speak of, are other humans, and subject only to how their genes are expressed. The human condition is based on a balance between ones virtue and moral wisdom. An imbalance between the two creates conflict, insecurity, and the need to conform. How these traits are expressed will determine what personality is expressed.

No religion should be stringent in their religiosity at all. It is a conceptual belief, not a practice. People can believe in anything they want, without going to church, or participating in any religious rituals. Why should anyone be forced to prove their loyalty or faith, by giving up a portion of their wealth? Other than a need for guidance or order in their lives, I see no practical application for Mormonism, or any religious belief. Other than the filling of some psychological void. So to each their own.

 

[Prestor John]

You have every right to choose the kind of members you want in your club, but just don't call your club religious, claim tax exemption, or assert that it is open to all. Unless you KNOW, not BELIEVE what is specifically ordained by a God, you are simply expressing your own core beliefs and views, and asserting that God agrees with you. These members you speak of, are other humans, and subject only to how their genes are expressed. The human condition is based on a balance between ones virtue and moral wisdom. An imbalance between the two creates conflict, insecurity, and the need to conform. How these traits are expressed will determine what personality is expressed.

No religion should be stringent in their religiosity at all. It is a conceptual belief, not a practice. People can believe in anything they want, without going to church, or participating in any religious rituals. Why should anyone be forced to prove their loyalty or faith, by giving up a portion of their wealth? Other than a need for guidance or order in their lives, I see no practical application for Mormonism, or any religious belief. Other than the filling of some psychological void. So to each their own.

What if I did claim to KNOW that the LDS Church was ordained of God.

What would that matter to you?

 

[Subduction Zone]

What if I did claim to KNOW that the LDS Church was ordained of God.

What would that matter to you?

if that was the case it could make for a very interesting debate. Knowledge is demonstrable. Beliefs are usually proclaimed as 'knowledge ' but nothing more. If you truly know it then you can show it.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

What if I did claim to KNOW that the LDS Church was ordained of God.

What would that matter to you?

Since you are NOT a God, it is impossible for you to KNOW what is ordained by a God. Therefore, it doesn't matter to me anymore than some adult claiming to have the immortal soul of Napoleon. What does matter to me, is when you and others with the same religious mind-set, try to directly influence the minds of vulnerable and impressionable children. Especially, when making claims of truth that you DON'T really know to be true. How do you KNOW that heaven , God, Jesus, a soul, sin, or anything outside of the natural laws(physics) are real or exists? You don't, you simply believe that you do. Why are your beliefs more truer than the other 4,199? There are many options available to parents to rob their children of their potential, their individuality, innocence, sense of wonderment, and natural ability to excel. Why the need to project these social belief fantasies into our government-protected public schools? Why the self-righteous need to challenge the separation of church and state clause of our Constitution? Aren't private schools, churches, religious institutions, colleges, camps, academies, and other religious centers of studies enough for you?

I don't want young open minds learning that all answers are true, and no answer is false, in a metaphysical supernatural reality. All children must be allowed to have the same academic grounding, to develop the intellectual skills necessary to communicate effectively, analyze and solve problems, and to critically think. Whether these skills are applied in the arts or the sciences, they are still invaluable. I have no problem with teaching comparative religions in Social and Cultural Anthropology Arts classes, or in Social History classes. At this age, children are able to discern between what is real and what is fiction. But in the early grades, Santa and the Easter Bunny are real. So please keep your unfalsifiable claims of truth out of our public schools. The Constitution gives us the right to choose our religion. But it also gives us the right not to choose as well.

Just look at the supreme court cases, and you will see why religion should never be taught in public schools. It only breeds exclusivity, intolerance, hatred, superiority, forced conformity, fear, and insecurity. Just look at some of these Supreme Court decisions. I know its lengthy, but just look at a few. Please, don't force this nonsense onto our kids. It is only evolution that forces them to trust you.

http://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2007/05/religion-public-schools.pdf

 

[Katzpur]

I seriously doubt it. How does one go about knowing if a GOD "ordained" anything? It is no different than another useless idiom, "the Devil made me do it". Just like most cults or belief systems, the transference of personal responsibility for ones behavior to an unquestionable, unfalsifiable, all-knowing entity, is always the same. Obedience and order must be maintained above all. You can do nothing but hope that a bunch of old men, clinging to their own skewed version of self-importance, will receive some revelation to right their own moral wrong. But revelation came only in the form of a Government threatening to take money away, and change religious status, to right that wrong. No human being can ever know, or verify, what is or isn't ordained by a God.

While I would agree that "no human being can ever know, or verify, what is or isn't ordained by a God, I certainly haven't skin-doctored anything. The difference between me and some members of my Church is that I believe its leaders have definitely made mistakes in the past and that they have made some decisions that are simply a result of them being human beings with human failings.

What would have surprised me, if you or your leaders would have issued a public apology for condoning such racist practices and teachings by the church. They haven't. It should not have taken the changing of social values and an entire Government to have influenced the decision to change. I would have also been surprised if the racist words were totally removed from the Book of Mormons. They haven't. What I got was expected: Parroting the acknowledgement of an excuse.

How in the world would you expect to me to able to issue a "public apology" on behalf on the LDS Church? I'm in no position to be able to do that. Personally, it breaks my heart to know that this discrimination ever happened. I can and do acknowledge that it did, but that's all I can reasonably be expected to do.

Regarding LGBTQ equality and Mormonism? This group is regulated under the rules of sexual conduct. Those that do not act on their sexual orientation are fine. Those that do act will be on probation, disfellowshipped, and eventually excommunicated from the church("They also lose the eternal ties that bind them to their families and their church"). Nothing to do with being "ordained by God". It is simply "ordained" by the leaders.

I hope you don't think you're telling me something I don't already know. I am proud to be a strong LGBT ally.

But I still don't KNOW you.

That's for sure. What you know of me is the tip of the iceberg, if that.

 

[Prestor John]

if that was the case it could make for a very interesting debate. Knowledge is demonstrable. Beliefs are usually proclaimed as 'knowledge ' but nothing more. If you truly know it then you can show it.

I'm waiting for other to live by that standard.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

While I would agree that "no human being can ever know, or verify, what is or isn't ordained by a God, I certainly haven't skin-doctored anything. The difference between me and some members of my Church is that I believe its leaders have definitely made mistakes in the past and that they have made some decisions that are simply a result of them being human beings with human failings.

How in the world would you expect to me to able to issue a "public apology" on behalf on the LDS Church? I'm in no position to be able to do that. Personally, it breaks my heart to know that this discrimination ever happened. I can and do acknowledge that it did, but that's all I can reasonably be expected to do.

I hope you don't think you're telling me something I don't already know. I am proud to be a strong LGBT ally.

That's for sure. What you know of me is the tip of the iceberg, if that.

Unless you are afflicted with some multiple personality disorder, or not the same person I have been dialoguing with, your responses are consistent with what I would expect. I would expect you to water-down any clearly sexist, or racist policies of the church, by claiming human weakness(fallibility), or that it was normal practice at the time. This also includes banning women access to the priesthood. Essentially saying at this gentlemen's club, that women do not have the same leadership capabilities as men, and should always remain subservient, barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen. Now the church is acting to protect its conservative values regarding sexual freedom and sexual orientation. Why would the sexual behavior between consenting adults, be of any concern to the church? This seems almost hypocritical, considering the churches position on polygamy and marriage. I know that this practice is still going on today. It is also hypocritical to put out videos like this, and still maintain the exact opposite policies.

Mormon.org | What is the Mormon Church and Religion?

If you don't think that these policies are morally right, then speak out. Talk to your leaders, petition your representatives to speak on your behalf, or speak with other like-minded members. Eventually, your combined voices will be heard, and change will occur. "Too bad, so sad", "Gee, I wish it never happened", just doesn't do enough justice to the sheer magnitude and effect of these insidious practices.

Other countries have officially apologized over the treatment of their indigenous population, why not the church of LDS? Removing the racist words from the Book of Mormons would certainly be a start. Allowing women access to the priesthood would also be a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, those that benefit from power and control, will not easily give up power and control. Especially old insecure men in power.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I'm waiting for other to live by that standard.

So, if other don't live by their standards, it then justifies you not living by yours? Is this the level of moral responsibility that you want our kids to embrace?

 

[Katzpur]

If you don't think that these policies are morally right, then speak out. Talk to your leaders, petition your representatives to speak on your behalf, or speak with other like-minded members. Eventually, your combined voices will be heard, and change will occur. "Too bad, so sad", "Gee, I wish it never happened", just doesn't do enough justice to the sheer magnitude and effect of these insidious practices.

Excuse me, but I have. This will be my last post to you, although I'm sure I haven't heard the last insult from you.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Excuse me, but I have. This will be my last post to you, although I'm sure I haven't heard the last insult from you.

I was responding to your statement asking, what do you expect me to do? I was giving you suggestions and options. I was not trying to insult you. What you choose to believe in is none of my business. My only concerns were on the practices by the church that I felt would not be considered benevolent or humane. If I have insulted you, I apologize. I am not here to insult anyone.

 

[loganonekenobi]

1) that works, but you also got to tell about the beliefs
4) that would work, but it's probably biased, at least as biased as the teacher is or the one who prepares the teaching materials. What I got from Catholicism was quite distorted for example and Protestantism was seen as a logical conclusion...



1) there are Christians who don't want to indoctrinate
3) there are Christians who don't have a problem with that, rather believing in reasoned positions
4) seems like a lot of folks could use some learning from opposite or even similar religions and philosophies, I think such things could be reasoned out

There are always some. However, it only takes a few out raged parents to ruin things for the school.

 

[loganonekenobi]

I'm against any class that doesn't address an educational need, and I see no educational need for religious knowledge.

When in high school I had a "shop" class (those that taught wood working, electrical wiring, etc.) in printing. As it turned out It was all on typesetting. From a large compartmentalized tray we picked out individual metal letters and aligned them in a composing stick so as to make up some verse or another. This was then hand inked, put under a hand powered rolling press, that printed out the verse on paper. Why such a class when no one had-set type anymore? Because they had all this equipment left over from the turn of the century and didn't want it to go to waste. But it was a waste. It was a complete waste of everyone's time, student's and teacher's.

I feel the same way about religion being taught in public schools. Other then one's own religion, I fail to see any need to know about religions. I think class time can be better used teaching subjects that are useful.

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From my observation of history, litturiture, and philosophy you can't go very far without mentioning the religious influence on them. I understand your view on this but the truth is to understand ourselves as a species we must see our past in a clear light.

 

[Skwim]

From my observation of history, litturiture, and philosophy you can't go very far without mentioning the religious influence on them. I understand your view on this but the truth is to understand ourselves as a species we must see our past in a clear light.

I have no problem teaching the role any religion has played in history, literature, or philosophy, but this does not necessarily require delving into their theologies. If this is what a school board chooses to do then it should be comparative in nature, and not focusing on any one, two or three religions. Personally, I feel class time could be better spent on subjects other than religion.

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