Bergoglio said: see you in Hell, maybe

[Fallen Prophet]

There are differing reasons offered for why the Incarnation. The most popular being that of sacrifice to a vengeful God, a scapegoat, Jesus is sort of an afterthought, due to man's sin, offense to God. Another, not so popular, Jesus is first thought, the reason for creation, and God's solidarity with his creation man.

These differing reasons are what Catholics believe?

 

[pearl]

These differing reasons are what Catholics believe?

The latter is the favorite of the Franciscans.
Throughout the centuries, Christian theology and piety have developed these interpretations of Jesus' execution. At times God has even been described as demanding Jesus' suffering and death as a means of atonement—to satisfy and appease an angry God. In many forms of theology, popular piety and religious practice, the purpose of Jesus' life is directly linked to original sin and all human sinfulness. Without sin, there would have been no need for the Incarnation.

From this perspective, God is appreciated with a different emphasis. God is not an angry or vindictive God, demanding the suffering and death of Jesus as a payment for past sin. God is, instead, a gracious God, sharing divine life and love in creation and in the Incarnation (like parents sharing their love in the life of a new child). Evidently, such a view can dramatically change our image of God, our celebration of Christmas, our day-by-day prayer.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be....And the Word became flesh...." The Prologue of John's Gospel (1:1-18) gives us this magnificent vision, proclaiming that all creation came to be in the Word, God's self-expression who became flesh, Jesus.

John's meditation on God's supreme act of love in the Incarnation (also see 3:16) has led some theologians to consider that this event alone was sufficient to save the world. Indeed, John's Gospel does not see Jesus' death as a ransom (unlike the synoptic Gospels, for example, Mark 10:45), nor does it use the language of sacrifice or atonement. There is, instead, emphasis on friendship, intimacy, mutuality, service, faithful love—revealing God's desire and gift for the full flourishing of humanity, or in other words, salvation (see the Farewell Address, John 13:1—17:26).

Jesus' crucifixion (usually described as being "lifted up") is part of his "hour" of glorification, which also includes his resurrection and ascension. For John, this hour is not sacrifice but epiphany, the manifestation of God.


Hundreds of years later, in the Middle Ages, the question about Jesus was expressed very explicitly: Would the Son of God have become incarnate if humanity had not sinned? The great theologian St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) answered in the negative, viewing the Incarnation as a remedy for sin.

Another great philosopher and theologian, Franciscan John Duns Scotus (1266-1308), disagreed with Thomas's emphasis on sin. Indeed, Duns Scotus boldly proclaimed and defended the primacy of the Incarnation. He based his view on the Scriptures and early theologians and on logic. He argued, for example, that God's supreme work, the Incarnation, had to be first and foremost in God's mind. It could not be dependent on or occasioned by any action of humans, especially sin.

I quoted from an article in the original periodical 'St Anthony's Messenger' which was sold and I cannot trace to the old site. I saved the original article but its a bit much to copy and paste.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

The latter is the favorite of the Franciscans.
Throughout the centuries, Christian theology and piety have developed these interpretations of Jesus' execution. At times God has even been described as demanding Jesus' suffering and death as a means of atonement—to satisfy and appease an angry God. In many forms of theology, popular piety and religious practice, the purpose of Jesus' life is directly linked to original sin and all human sinfulness. Without sin, there would have been no need for the Incarnation.

From this perspective, God is appreciated with a different emphasis. God is not an angry or vindictive God, demanding the suffering and death of Jesus as a payment for past sin. God is, instead, a gracious God, sharing divine life and love in creation and in the Incarnation (like parents sharing their love in the life of a new child). Evidently, such a view can dramatically change our image of God, our celebration of Christmas, our day-by-day prayer.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be....And the Word became flesh...." The Prologue of John's Gospel (1:1-18) gives us this magnificent vision, proclaiming that all creation came to be in the Word, God's self-expression who became flesh, Jesus.

John's meditation on God's supreme act of love in the Incarnation (also see 3:16) has led some theologians to consider that this event alone was sufficient to save the world. Indeed, John's Gospel does not see Jesus' death as a ransom (unlike the synoptic Gospels, for example, Mark 10:45), nor does it use the language of sacrifice or atonement. There is, instead, emphasis on friendship, intimacy, mutuality, service, faithful love—revealing God's desire and gift for the full flourishing of humanity, or in other words, salvation (see the Farewell Address, John 13:1—17:26).

Jesus' crucifixion (usually described as being "lifted up") is part of his "hour" of glorification, which also includes his resurrection and ascension. For John, this hour is not sacrifice but epiphany, the manifestation of God.


Hundreds of years later, in the Middle Ages, the question about Jesus was expressed very explicitly: Would the Son of God have become incarnate if humanity had not sinned? The great theologian St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) answered in the negative, viewing the Incarnation as a remedy for sin.

Another great philosopher and theologian, Franciscan John Duns Scotus (1266-1308), disagreed with Thomas's emphasis on sin. Indeed, Duns Scotus boldly proclaimed and defended the primacy of the Incarnation. He based his view on the Scriptures and early theologians and on logic. He argued, for example, that God's supreme work, the Incarnation, had to be first and foremost in God's mind. It could not be dependent on or occasioned by any action of humans, especially sin.

I quoted from an article in the original periodical 'St Anthony's Messenger' which was sold and I cannot trace to the old site. I saved the original article but its a bit much to copy and paste.

Wow - that was great - thank you for sharing that - honestly.

So - would you mind explaining who or what Jesus is supposedly the Incarnation of?

 

[pearl]

So - would you mind explaining who or what Jesus is supposedly the Incarnation of?

God's love and solidarity with us, his creation.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

God's love and solidarity with us, his creation.

Ok - we have danced around this enough and are getting no where.

The Catholic Church teaches and believes that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Incarnation of God Himself.

That God became flesh, that God assumed a human nature and became a man in the form of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is true that the Lord Jesus Christ embodies God's love for us and that He is with us - but He is more than that.

He is literally the God of Israel made flesh - the Incarnation of God.

 

[pearl]

He is literally the God of Israel made flesh - the Incarnation of God.

Take into account Catholic teaching concerning the Trinity. Jesus is never, ever God the Father, but the Son. That God 'pitched his tent' with us, God's love made visible, etc. are analogous symbolism.

461 Taking up St. John's expression, "The Word became flesh",82 the Church calls "Incarnation" the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature in order to accomplish our salvation in it.
463 Belief in the true Incarnation of the Son of God is the distinctive sign of Christian faith: "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God."85 Such is the joyous conviction of the Church from her beginning whenever she sings "the mystery of our religion": "He was manifested in the flesh."86
from the CCC.
Notice all references to Jesus are to the Son, not the Father

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Take into account Catholic teaching concerning the Trinity. Jesus is never, ever God the Father, but the Son. That God 'pitched his tent' with us, God's love made visible, etc. are analogous symbolism.

461 Taking up St. John's expression, "The Word became flesh",82 the Church calls "Incarnation" the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature in order to accomplish our salvation in it.
463 Belief in the true Incarnation of the Son of God is the distinctive sign of Christian faith: "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God."85 Such is the joyous conviction of the Church from her beginning whenever she sings "the mystery of our religion": "He was manifested in the flesh."86
from the CCC.
Notice all references to Jesus are to the Son, not the Father

The Lord Jesus Christ being the God of Israel is not a claim that He is the Father.

Rather - it is a claim that God the Father is manifesting the promises of His covenant with Israel through the Son - His Incarnation.

For example - when the Lord Jesus Christ bemoaned the inhabitants of Jerusalem,

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matthew 23:37)

Did the Lord Jesus Christ - Himself - send prophets to the city of Jerusalem to gather them together (as part of the Father's covenant with Israel) - or did the Father do this?

The Lord Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Father's promises to Israel - therefore - He is acting as the God of Israel - assuming the role and authority of the God of Israel - to accomplish our salvation.

I said that the Catholic Church teaches and believes that the Lord Jesus Christ is the God of Israel made flesh - not that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Father.

This is how the Word can be both with God and also be God.

 

[Estro Felino]

 

[metis]

She has an opinion-- that's all.