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Belief by choice

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Whenever I read threads about Christianity I am continually hung up on certain points, and I'd like to address one of them, that being John 14:9-14.

Many Christians quote John 14 as being evidence that Jesus is God (read literally) and that only through belief in him will people "be saved." The implication is that people must choose to believe.

But can people choose to believe? Is that possible?

Belief happens despite us, in the unconscious part of our mind. It is what we base many of our conscious decisions on, and can be over-ridden by logic and choice. But how can someone choose to believe in something, especially something that they have no foundation upon which to believe? (And no... words in a book isn't enough for some people.)
 

Phil

New Member
Faith is a gift from God. God changes the stoney heart, gives a hearing ear and seeing eye. It has to first come from God. The natural man can not receive the things of God.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It's so funny you'd ask that right now, Willamena. Jonny and I were just talking about that on another thread. And just about five weeks ago, I started a thread called "Choosing to believe." (You know what they say about great minds, don't you?)

Anyway, here's what I said in my first post: With respect to things of a spiritual nature (such a the existence of God or the validity of a particular belief system), is it possible to will oneself to believe? I don't think it is. I couldn't will myself to be an atheist, no matter what the negative ramifications of my being a theist might be. Logically, then, I don't believe it is possible for an atheist to simply will himself to believe.

On the other hand, the Bible teaches that a belief in Jesus Christ is essential to salvation. Would God require something of us that is impossible?
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Willamena said:
But can people choose to believe? Is that possible?

Yes. To believe, to have faith in something, is to trust something. I can make a conscious choice to choose to put my trust in something. I choose to trust the God I know in Christ.

luna
 

Phil

New Member
lunamoth said:
Yes. To believe, to have faith in something, is to trust something. I can make a conscious choice to choose to put my trust in something. I choose to trust the God I know in Christ.

luna

But who gets credit for you trusting in Christ? You should be thanking God that you put your trust in Him, for it is God who gave that gift to you.

1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Phil said:
But who gets credit for you trusting in Christ? You should be thanking God that you put your trust in Him, for it is God who gave that gift to you.

1 Cor 2:14
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Please do not preach to me. Do not assume that you should tell me this.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Willamena said:
Belief happens despite us, in the unconscious part of our mind. It is what we base many of our conscious decisions on, and can be over-ridden by logic and choice. But how can someone choose to believe in something, especially something that they have no foundation upon which to believe? (And no... words in a book isn't enough for some people.)

This describes my life thus far.

If I chose anything, it was that I chose to look at something, consider something, read about something. I may have chosen to be open- rather than closed-minded about it. (Some might say rather that I chose to be gullible or naive or willful.)

But I never felt like the belief itself is something I chose. That's true when I became an atheist, and was true again when I became a theist.
 

niceguy

Active Member
Katzpur said:
On the other hand, the Bible teaches that a belief in Jesus Christ is essential to salvation. Would God require something of us that is impossible?

Maybe it's like you are inside a dark room (due to a powercut) and you cannot see anything . I grew up in a house with flouresent lightswitchs, I just had to look for that faint light and I knew exactly where the door was since the lightswitch was just next to it. Then we have those that know that there is a door but not where to find it so they carefully search the walls until they do. Some people dosen't care about the dark and just sit and wait for the power to return since they find no need to leave the room. Then finally we have those that panic, thease ar the people that have no fiath to comfort them and are afraid of the dark.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Willamena said:
Whenever I read threads about Christianity I am continually hung up on certain points, and I'd like to address one of them, that being John 14:9-14.

Many Christians quote John 14 as being evidence that Jesus is God (read literally) and that only through belief in him will people "be saved." The implication is that people must choose to believe.

But can people choose to believe? Is that possible?

Belief happens despite us, in the unconscious part of our mind. It is what we base many of our conscious decisions on, and can be over-ridden by logic and choice. But how can someone choose to believe in something, especially something that they have no foundation upon which to believe? (And no... words in a book isn't enough for some people.)

Not everyone is a behavioralist.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
There is a difference between matters of faith, and matters of truth. The fact that gravity has been in effect on Earth every day that I have lived is a matter of truth, to me. So, when I trust that gravity will be in effect on Earth tomorrow, that's an assumption I've chosen to hold based on apparent truth. It would be difficult for me to choose not to hold this assumption given the experiences I have as corroborating evidence (my entire life, and all I've been taught about science and history).

However, gravity is an objective physical phenomena. I can experience it, and test it, and know that others can experience and test it as well. "God" is not an objective physical phenomena. "God" is an ideal. And as such it can't be tested and shared in an objective way. So any assumption that I choose to hold about "God" will not be based on apparent truth, because there is no apparent objective proof for the existence or nature of "God". So my chosen assumptions about "God" must be based on something else besides truth. And for me that something else is basically desire.

I choose to believe in God because I desire that God exists. I choose not to define God any more than to say that God is "love expressed" because that's all the more definition for God I can rationally justify.

I guess what I'm saying is that experience and logic can only take us so far in our understanding of existence. And after that, we have to make our choices based on desire, and on the effect these choices have on our lives. "God" is one of those concepts that requires more proof than we will be able to acquire as human beings, and so our beliefs regarding the nature and existence of God must rest on the latter: on our desire to believe and on the effect that belief has on us as human beings.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Perhaps the words of Shelley have some relevance here:

When a proposition is offered to the mind, It perceives the agreement or disagreement of the ideas of which it is composed. A perception of their agreement is termed belief. Many obstacles frequently prevent this perception from being immediate; these the mind attempts to remove in order that the perception may be distinct. The mind is active in the investigation in order to perfect the state of perception of the relation which the component ideas of the proposition bear to each, which is passive; the investigation being confused with the perception has induced many falsely to imagine that the mind is active in belief. -- that belief is an act of volition, -- in consequence of which it may be regulated by the mind.
 

Smoke

Done here.
I think we have a natural tendency to believe just about anything we're told, especially if we hear it from someone we trust. Sooner or later we learn that some sources are more reliable than others, and with any luck we begin to acquire the habit of critical thinking.

We're not encouraged to think critically about religion, though, and for good reason. Religions make claims that just aren't plausible if we stop to think about them. Our own religion never seems ludicrous, but other religions usually do. A Christian, hearing about Muhammad's Night Journey, will shake his head in bewilderment. How can Muslims be so gullible as to think that Muhammad was transported to Jerusalem, and then to heaven, and conversed with long-dead Patriarchs? The Christian finds it absurd, though he himself may well believe that Enoch, Elijah, Jesus, and Mary all ascended bodily into heaven, that Jesus was born of a virgin, turned water into wine, walked on the surface of a lake, rose from the dead, and is bound to return in glory any time now. It never occurs to him that a belief in the Night Journey is no more implausible than his own beliefs.

Believing what we're told can be a very useful trait, especially when we're young. A child using a towel for a Superman cape is better off believing his mother when she says he can't fly off the roof, than finding out for himself. Don't go swimming alone; don't take candy from strangers; don't play with matches. We're encouraged to take a lot on faith when we're children, and for the most part it's better if we do. However, we also pick up a lot of nonsense: Santa is watching you, your face will freeze like that, you're making Baby Jesus cry. Even when we grow out of the most obviously false beliefs, we look back with nostalgia to a time when we believed whatever we told, and it seems like a more innocent, happier, finer time.

If we've been brought up in a religion, and find consolation in it, it takes an act of will to think critically about it. If we've been brought up to think that Jesus was born of a virgin, it may seem horrible to entertain any other idea. So on some level we have to decide whether we're going to entertain our doubts or not.

We can also come from outside a religion and decide to join it for reasons that may have nothing to do with its truth claims. In that case, we just have to suspend our disbelief. The more we immerse ourselves in the new religion, the easier it is to tune out the doubts. We start out saying, "I don't really believe that, but that's not the important thing about the religion." If we find enough meaning, beauty, and consolation in the new religion, though, we find ourselves believing the most implausible things after a while.

People sometimes think the Bible tells us to become like little children because children are sweet and innocent and pure. I don't know how anybody can think so who knows any children. Children are selfish, violent, cruel, and undisciplined, and it takes years of careful training to turn them into people fit for adult society. The sense in which a religionist needs to become childlike lies in unquestioning belief and uncritical acceptance. Asking the obvious questions is not a good way to maintain a belief in the virgin birth or an infallible scripture.

If, despite ourselves, we can't sustain our belief in the truth claims of our religion, we can still choose to find meaning in the religion and to accept those truth claims figuratively, symbolically, or "spiritually." In some cases this may be because we stopped short of asking the next question.

A surprising number of people are active in religions whose teachings they don't really believe, but they're trying to believe -- "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief!" -- or they don't believe all of it, but they still find meaning, beauty, and consolation in the religion, so they keep their doubts to themselves.

For an adult who lets himself think about religion, sustaining a satisfactory level of belief is hard work, and so is breaking free of belief. So I think that when it comes to religion, both belief and disbelief are choices, though in many cases they're not quite conscious choices.

Imagine a believer, perhaps one of you here. I suspect that she and I may have asked a lot of the same questions. I think that on some level we've both made choices about what questions to ask, how to ask them, and what types of answers we're willing to accept. Her choices have led her to belief; mine have led me to disbelief. Regardless of who's right or wrong, choice has had a lot to do with where we both ended up. Even if many other people's choices may have been less overt and even less conscious, I still think they've been choices.

I don't think there are many religions that hold up well under critical examination, but there are a lot of people -- the majority, apparently -- who think there are important reasons for not thinking critically about religion.

It would be very easy to say I could never go back to faith, that I just can't believe those things any more. But of course I could. If I were sufficiently motivated, for some reason, I could make my way back to the Church, and though it might take a while, there's no reason I couldn't be looking back five or ten years from now and laughing at my "atheist phase." Likewise, our believer -- if she were sufficiently motivated -- could make her way out of the Church, and find herself looking back on her "Christian years" from the point of view of an unbeliever.

Whatever happens will happen because of choices we make, for reasons that aren't always clear to us at the time. Perspective, as somebody said, is for later.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
If think beliefs choose us as much as we choose them. Social and religious conditioning, personal experience and the availability of knowlege are factors, but ultimately some of our beliefs are determined otherwise.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
Willamena said:
Whenever I read threads about Christianity I am continually hung up on certain points, and I'd like to address one of them, that being John 14:9-14.

Many Christians quote John 14 as being evidence that Jesus is God (read literally) and that only through belief in him will people "be saved." The implication is that people must choose to believe.

But can people choose to believe? Is that possible?

Belief happens despite us, in the unconscious part of our mind. It is what we base many of our conscious decisions on, and can be over-ridden by logic and choice. But how can someone choose to believe in something, especially something that they have no foundation upon which to believe? (And no... words in a book isn't enough for some people.)

You can choose to act in certain way to reinforce whatever it is in your subconscious that might influence your mental space. The words "belief in him" attract attention and mean a whole lot more because "Jesus" has many learned associations for you. You can choose to ignore "jesus" surely as you can choose to learn more about him?
 
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