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Baptists aren't protestants.

Discussion in 'Baptist DIR' started by Luke_17:2, May 6, 2007.

  1. Luke_17:2

    Luke_17:2 Fundamental Bible-thumper

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    333
    Historcally, Baptists have never claimed to be Protestant. A protestant Church is one that broke from the Cathcolic Chruch during the reformation: i.e. Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, Calvinism, Lutheranism, and Dutch Reformed. The Baptist Chruch dates back to the dark ages, maybe even to the time of the apostles. Of course the term "baptist" wasn't used until the 17th centruy, they were more commonly called "Free Churches"; i.e free of the Catholic Church. This of course won them the title of "heretics", and the presecution of Rome: this is the cause of the deep hatred of the Roman Church among Baptists today.

    Another non-Protestant church is the Methodist Church. It broke from the Episcopal Church; not the Catholic Church.

     
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Technically, Anglicans are not Protestant. They eschewed the authority of Rome, but never broke from the historic episcopacy. (Kind of like the Orthodox).

    The Methodists didn't break from the Episcopal Church. They came out of the Church of England.
     
  3. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Religion:
    Anglican...heretic
    Free churches were originally ones that were not established unlike the Church of England.
    Established means in effect to be authorised by the state.
    The Church of England Has legal powers, has a part in government and law making. it's Church wardens even have powers of arrest with in the bounds of its property.

    Free churches had none of these things.

    Free ... never meant free from the Church of Rome.

    So most of those churches you mentioned were Free Churches when in England as well as professing protestantism..

    The Episcopal Church itself is a derivative from the Church of England, Even to day they often exchange priests.They are in full communion.
     
  4. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    How many books in your Bible?

    If its 66 then you're pretty much guaranteed to be descended from a protestant church organisation.
     
    robtex likes this.
  5. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Some Church of England Bibles have the Apocrypha included in them.
    What does that say?
     
  6. joeboonda

    joeboonda New Member

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    I have read a couple books of how Baptists trace themselves back to the early church before Rome. They practiced baptism of beievers by emersion and Communion, had deacons, bishops as the epistles describe. The line to the early church is hard to trace, it is believed they took care to keep the scriptures safe and incorrupt, and that they fled to the hills, caves, underground tunnels below cities, and the wildernesses to escape persecution from Rome and Muslims. Later they were called Valenses, then Waldenses, I think around the 11th century. They were later called Annabaptists then Baptists. They were persecuted by the Roman Church and also later the state churches and Protestant Churches because they did not accept infant baptism, only believer's baptism and did not believe in a state church. They were forced from many countries upon penalty of death to leave in so many days, many times just before the harvest. Finaly, in America they are now free to worship as they please and it has been a golden age, with Baptists having multiplied in great numbers. I am trying to attend a couple different churches, but if I don't like them, I may join a local Baptist Church myself, having attended Baptist Churches in the past for many years, among others, I think they are very pure in their doctrine. (yes, there are always the exceptions)
     
  7. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    It's an artifact of the creation of the CofE. At different stages during the formative period of the church there were both Protestant and Catholic Monarchs, this resulted in the Anglican Church becoming a fusion of Catholic and Protestant aspects.

    The Anabaptists formed as a result of the reformation, linking them to the Waldensians has no historical basis.

    Baptists, as far as i am aware, use the 66 book Protestant Bible and reject the Papacy. They are protestant, but like many groups today and in the past, they claim apostolic descent to give the group a sense of ancient authenticity.
     
    angellous_evangellous likes this.
  8. angellous_evangellous

    angellous_evangellous Pater Familias Staff Member Premium Member

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    I agree, Halcyon. You've made an excellent point with the canon. If Baptists did not share the Roman Catholic heritage up to the Reformation, they most certainly would have a different canon. Way to go.

    I'm sure that most people who argue that Baptists are an ancient church have no understanding of history whatsoever, and don't even know that the ancient churches (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Coptic) have different canons, and they happen to have the Roman canon (and pretend that they protected it from Rome :rolleyes: ).
     
    Smoke likes this.
  9. Luke_17:2

    Luke_17:2 Fundamental Bible-thumper

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    333
    Yes they did officialy break from Rome. Henry VIII broke the Church of England (which had always existed a contiuancy of the Church of Rome) from Rome when the Pope refused to annul his marriage.

    And the Orthadox church was originally above the Roman Church. The Byzantine Emperor was also the head of the Christian Church which extended to the Patriarch of Rome (later the Pope of Rome). When emperor Leo III didn't assist Rome during the Lombard invasion of Italy, Rome effectively became independent, and did not pledge allegiance to the Eastern Emperor any more. Though the schism didn't occur until much later.

    You are kidding right?

    Church of England=Anglican Church=Episcopal Church!
     
  10. joeboonda

    joeboonda New Member

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    Well my information in the book, Baptists in History, by W.D. Harvey, says they were ,going from now to then, Baptists, Annabaptists, Mennonites, Waldenses mistakenly as origin, but went back further, to the Vallenses or Vandois, having been named by the papacy Waldenses (after Peter Waldo of Lyons)to try to represent them as more modern in origin.

    Zwingle the great Swiss reformer wrote," The institution of Anabaptism is NO NOVELTY, but for 1300 YEARS has caused great disturbance in the church, andhas acquired such a strength that the attempts in this age to contend with it appeared futile for a time."

    Take 1300 from 1530, the date Zwingle wrote that and you get 230 A.D. a date reaching nearly to the apostolic age.
     
  11. joeboonda

    joeboonda New Member

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    The Council of Nicea involved many bishops of many churces, NOT just the Roman Church.
     
  12. angellous_evangellous

    angellous_evangellous Pater Familias Staff Member Premium Member

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    Zwingli is not exactly an unbiased source, if indeed he said that. Zwingli was perhaps the most radical reformer, who was the first person to kill Anabaptists. He ruthlessly imposed his Reform on his cities, and wanted to be remembered by his sword.

    Something by Leon McBeth - The Baptist Heritage: Four Centuries of Baptist Heritage would be far more constructive. In it, he discusses the historical worthlessness of all theories that trace Baptist heritage to Christ and situates the formation of Baptist dogma firmly within the context of the Reformation.
     
  13. angellous_evangellous

    angellous_evangellous Pater Familias Staff Member Premium Member

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    So you think that a Baptist bishop was there?! :cover:

    Before 900, the Roman Pope was seen as a leader amoung equals, and appealed to by letter by many bishops to settle doctrinal problems. The assumption was that "no heresy had ever crept into the Roman church" and the Roman bishop was the best person to ask regarding minuta of doctrine. Eventually, the Roman bishop claimed absolute authority and infalliability (Leo X if I remember correctly), which was rejected by the Eastern bishops (none of whom, of course, held to anything that can be construed as 'Baptist' theology and practice).

    The Roman Bishop and the Eastern bishop mutually excommunicated eachother in 1054, and the Western Church became what we know as Roman Catholic, which the Baptist church came out of in the 16th century, adopting its canon and many traditions, most notably following the Western bishop Augustine, which the Eastern church does not recognize as a saint.
     
  14. Luke_17:2

    Luke_17:2 Fundamental Bible-thumper

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    I really have no reservations on the subject. Protestant, or Free doesn't matter as long as it's not branded catholic. ;)

    Though I've always accepted the position I stated at the beginning of the thread; I'm open-minded about it.
     
  15. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia New Member

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    Some Protestant groups do not consider themselves as part of the Protestant movement, but are generally viewed as such by scholars and the public at large, this is why they are listed on the forum that way. While the staff of RF has always tried to accomadate people in regards to their beliefs, sometimes an unbiased outside source is relied upon when differences of opinion arise. The intent is not offend but to make sub-forums easy to find in a logical way. Most people would look for Baptist under Protestantism.
     
  16. Luke_17:2

    Luke_17:2 Fundamental Bible-thumper

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    333
    No complaints here. I just figured it would be an interesting discussion, and I wanted to make the point. :)
     
  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    There is a huge difference between a church dating back to the Aposles and it dating back to the Dark Ages. This, in and of itself, would raise a lot of questions in my mind about the origins of the Baptist Church's doctrines and any claim to apostolic authority they might have.
     
  18. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    8,762
    No, the church of england considered themselves the branch of catholicism that had it's head in England. It was part of a movement to make the Catholic church not a Universal Church of all Believers, but a National Church of all Believers. It was more a political split than a theological split (after all, the church denied a marriage annulment for political reasons). Henry tried to prove that authority to run a church rested in the monarch, not the pope, and that as such he was the true leader of the church in England. So, it was not a protestant church, but a church built through reforming the catholic church, but not actually purposely breaking ties from it.
     
  19. des

    des New Member

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    512
    I don't think you could take any church today and say it was anything at all like the early Christian church, because we have no idea what the early church was like. One thing we could probably say was that there were many christian churches and not one. Each little community had its own little church (rarely more than 50-100 people perhaps) and they had no scripture that would make them similar (the NT books were written 50-150 years after the Jesus taught-- perhaps more). Even then there was likely much difference-- they were probably congregational (with a lower c). But this about all we can say. Even if you say it came directly from the dark ages, instead of the earliest church is rather a stretch. It certainly is not even close to the same thing as someone noted. Perhaps there *may* have always been an early push for the priesthood of the believer (what was once a very strong characteristic of the Baptist church, but seems to be much less so today-- just take all the tenets fo the Southern Baptist convention).


    To say that the Baptist church came directly out of the early church is fairly absurd. No church came out fo the early church that would be recognizable today-- not even Roman Catholic or Orthodox.

    I don't know if technically we could say that Baptists aren't protestant as they didn't emerge out of the Reformation-- maybe that's true. But for sociological and other purposes they are protestant. I suppose many of the more fundamentalist or conservative evangelical churches also didn't come out of the reformation either, but I have never heard them called anything but Protestant.

    OTOH, my understanding is that the UCC (United Church of Christ) came directly from two churches that were actively out of the reformation, but I don't think you see in it too much that would make it that similar to them anymore. Even the Congregational church doesn't look too much like the old Congregational church. Perhaps there have been more than one reformations-- perhaps many. The Baptist churches (note that there are now more than one) are really an example of this.



    --des
     
  20. joeboonda

    joeboonda New Member

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    2,780
    The Baptist Church does not claim apostolic authority, they just feel they are and were all along closer to the early church as far as the Bible goes, observing a believer's baptism and communion, etc. I have a book with letters dating way back that speak about the annabaptists and such as having been around a long, long time, and persecuted by both protestants and catholics, also states for their beliefs. The baptist churches I have attended in my life all tried to follow the Bible and what it said the early church did. Although I don't care if people believe they came out of the RC church, the Protestant church or the Reformation or whatever, I think they are pretty cool, even the Free Will Baptists, although we differ on a couple things like eternal security, the ones I know are tolerable, lol. I have been in the Independent, and Southern Baptist Churches, and they are alright, too.
     
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