Baptism as an Old Testament symbol

[Strength & Honor]

"The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." Gen 1:2

I find your interpretation of this rather interesting. I've never hear anyone describe this as you do below...

It physically washed away satan and his demon's philosophy which corrupted the life forms on this earth prior to the creation of Adam.

How do you come by this interpretation of that passage?

 

[esmith]

I'm only going to answer the first question since I try to avoid explaining other people's beliefs for them. (It's so easy to get it wrong.)

To me, as a Christian, the ritual of baptism represents a couple of things. First, since it is the way we are symbolically cleansed of past sins, it is fruitless unless preceded by faith in Jesus Christ and repentence for one's sins. Second, and to me even more important, it is the way by which we enter into what we LDS would refer to as a "covenant relationship" with Jesus Christ. If that phrase isn't altogether clear, it might make more sense to say that it is the way a person commits to Jesus Christ that he is willing to take upon himself His Savior's name. It's making a promise to continue to live in accordance with the way Jesus Christ told us to live, and to do so throughout one's life, repenting again as necessary when we fall short. It's also receiving from Him, the promise of forgiveness and reconciliation with God as a result.

Basically then baptism is the removal of sin by your commitment and belief in Jesus. Correct?
Since the Jewish faith, other than Messianic Jews, do not accept Jesus as their messiah does it not follow that any reference to baptism, in the Old Testament, would also mandate an acceptance of Jesus? Since the Jewish faith has been using (I will use the Jewish term here)the Tanakh for their Bible would you therefore say that the Jewish faith is incorrect in their beliefs about Jesus?

 

[james2ko]

I find your interpretation of this rather interesting. I've never hear anyone describe this as you do below...How do you come by this interpretation of that passage?

Although this scenario is speculative, it coincides with the geologic record and the prevailing attitude of our current world, which is still under the sway and limited rule of lucifer (1 Jn 5:19; Jn 14:30):

In the beginning--perhaps billions of years ago (Gen1:1), God initially created the earth so beautiful and perfect for the original inhabitants that they shouted for joy (Job 38:7--morning stars are angels). The earth and its pre-historic life forms (dinosaurs, hominids) were a testing ground for Lucifer and his angels to see if they would qualify for much greater responsibility in the universe. Much like God is doing with mankind today (Rev 21:7).

Lucifer was created glorious--perfect in beauty, but he allowed vanity to consume him which corrupted his reasoning. The basis of God's way is that of love--of giving, sharing, helping, cooperating. On many occasions he attempted to reason with God that competition would be better than cooperation. It would be an incentive to excel, to try harder, to accomplish. There would be much more pleasure and joy in serving the self. But God disagreed and eventually stopped listening but allowed Lucifer and the angels to exercise their free will.

In spite of God's loving warning that lucifer's way will lead to much pain and suffering, lucifer employed his philosophy of survival of the fittest to balance out the pre-historic life placed in his care. The final act of rebellion was a crisis in which lucifer and the angels perceived the next step God had in mind was to terminate their experiment. This prompted them to abandon their inheritance (Jud 1:6) and scale the heavens in an attempted coup (Isa 14:13-14). Lucifer was quickly ejected from heaven and struck back down to the earth like a bolt of lightning (Isa 14:12; Luk 10:8). In their anger and fury, he and the fallen angels destroyed all that God placed under their care by hurling cosmic debris (asteroids, meteors) at the earth.

The land impacts created immense amounts of dust and debris and sparked tremendous volcanic activity. The winds carried the dust, debris, and ashes around the world eventually blotting out the sun. The water impacts caused unimaginable tsunamis which flooded the land. The aggregate result of these activities resulted in great quantities of subterranean waters (ground water) being spewed out of the ground which exacerbated the flooding.

This ultimately resulted in the entire earth being covered with water or put more figuratively---cleansed of all lucifer had corrupted. This set the stage for the next phase in God's plan--the repair and renewal (Psa 104:30) of the earth's inundated surface and the creation of Adam and the current life forms, approximately 6,000 years ago.

 

[Strength & Honor]

Basically then baptism is the removal of sin by your commitment and belief in Jesus. Correct?

That's the impression from scripture, yes. Of course, others' opinions will differ from that.

Since the Jewish faith, other than Messianic Jews, do not accept Jesus as their messiah does it not follow that any reference to baptism, in the Old Testament, would also mandate an acceptance of Jesus?

Perhaps I'm failing to understand your question, but any specific refernce to baptism would have an entirely different meaning in the OT compared to baptism in the NT. I'm not exactly sure what the purpose was, but I doubt it was the same then for Jews as it is today for Christians. So today, if a Jew accepted Jesus Christ as the son of God, repented of his sins, and was baptized, he would, in fact, be a Christian, and not a Jew any more.

Since the Jewish faith has been using (I will use the Jewish term here)the Tanakh for their Bible would you therefore say that the Jewish faith is incorrect in their beliefs about Jesus?

I would, in so far as they say that He is not the Messiah. That, I believe, as any Christian would, is incorrect.

 

[esmith]

Perhaps I'm failing to understand your question, but any specific refernce to baptism would have an entirely different meaning in the OT compared to baptism in the NT.

(I am using the Fully Revised Fourth Edition of The New Oxford Annotated Bible New Revised Standard Version with the Apocrypha as I my reference)
There are absolutely no references to baptism in the Old Testament, baptism is strictly a Christian rite which is found only in the New Testament and has no significance or meaning to those that believe only what is written in the Old Testament

I'm not exactly sure what the purpose was, but I doubt it was the same then for Jews as it is today for Christians. So today, if a Jew accepted Jesus Christ as the son of God, repented of his sins, and was baptized, he would, in fact, be a Christian, and not a Jew any more.

As I mentioned above there is absolutely no mention of the word baptism in the Old Testament. You are completely wrong in saying that if a Jew accepted Jesus as the son of God and was baptized they would no longer be a Jew. I suggest you research the Messianic Jewish religion before you make unfounded statements.

I would, in so far as they say that He is not the Messiah. That, I believe, as any Christian would, is incorrect.

Then if I reject the belief in Jesus, but still worship the God of the Old Testament I assume then that I do not have a "right standing before God"? This would also be applicable to those of the Jewish faith, correct?

 

[sojourner]

Baptism, for the OT Jew was a purity ritual. It was practiced for years prior to Jesus.

 

[esmith]

Baptism, for the OT Jew was a purity ritual. It was practiced for years prior to Jesus.

Are you saying that the Christian ritual of Baptism and what the ritual symbolizes was also practiced by those of the Jewish religion prior to Jesus?

 

[sojourner]

Are you saying that the Christian ritual of Baptism and what the ritual symbolizes was also practiced by those of the Jewish religion prior to Jesus?

**sigh**
For OT Jews, baptism was a purity ritual. That makes it kissin' kin to Christian baptism, but without the permanency, salvific overtones. It was merely a physical means to cleanse oneself of sin. A person would participate in many baptisms throughout one's life. it wasn't a one time sacrament, as Christians now practice it.

 

[esmith]

**sigh**
For OT Jews, baptism was a purity ritual. That makes it kissin' kin to Christian baptism, but without the permanency, salvific overtones. It was merely a physical means to cleanse oneself of sin. A person would participate in many baptisms throughout one's life. it wasn't a one time sacrament, as Christians now practice it.

I will agree with you that there was ritual bathing/washing. The Dead Sea Scrolls do mention it. Let leave it at that. Here is a link to ritual bathing: However, I do not speak to its correctness. You would have to go to the Jewish section of this forum and ask your question there.

Ritual washing in Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jtartar]

There have been several discussions about baptism here lately (which I love, BTW). As a way of building on that ongoing discussion, I’d like to pose a question to you on the forums.

Do you believe that there is any value in looking for Old Testament symbols of baptism? Does it prove anything regarding a particular stance on baptism? Is it helpful to the discussion? What can we learn from them? What specific examples can you think of?

Here's mine, the classic: Peter, in his first epistle, relates baptism to the story of Noah.

1 Pet 3: 20-21: “…when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”

Thoughts?

Strength & Honor,
There was NO baptism in the Hebrew Scriptures!!!
Baptism was started by John the Baptist, called John's Baptism, Acts 19:1-7.
This baptism was for forgiveness of sins, and only for the Jews, because they were in a Covenant relationship with God, and had broken the Covenant, many times, Acts 2:36-40.
After the Jews were baptized with John' baptism, they then had to be baptized again, in the same baptism the Gentiles later got baptized, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matt 28:19,20.
Peter likened baptism to being in the ARK of Noah's day. This is because it is the only way to salvation, 1Pet 3:18-21.
The reason that baptism was a requirement was to symbolize the death of the old body and the beginning of a new life, the Christian Way. Baptism symbolized going into the grave and then being raised up again.
The Bible tells us that all the ones who accepted Jesus as the Messiah in the first century, received Holy Spirit, which symbolized that they were to be ADOPTED by God as His Sons, and were to be CO-Rulers with Jesus during the 1000 year Judgement Day, Rev 20:4-6, Rom 8:14-17. This is what Jesus was talking about when he talked to Nicodemus, about being BORN AGAIN, at John 3:3-8.
Al the ones who accepted Jesus as the Messiah would redeive the same resurrection that Jesus received, to heaven as IMMORTAL SPIRIT creatures, Rom 6:3-6, 1Cor 15:51-54, 1Pet 3:18,19. In the spirit state, Jesus went and preached to the wicked spirits who were locked up in spirit prison, TARTARUS, 2Pet 2:4, Jude 6.
Baptism was a new thing, and was for all who wanted to become Christians, Matt 28:19,20. The Jews were ALL under a covenant relationship with God and needed nothing to show their loyalty, but obedience, Deut 5:1-3.
So just because people call themselves Christian, does not mean that they ARE Christian. NOMINAL Christians are not pleasing to God, there is a special WAY for Christians today, the same as in the Mosaic dispensation, Acts 9:2, 19:9,23, 22:4.
The nation of Israel was God's special people out of all other people, Ex 19:5,6, Deut 7:6, 14:1,2, Isa 43:10-13. God gave His Commandments to NO OTHER Nation, Deut 4:6-8, Ps 147:19,20, 1Chron 17:21.

 

[sojourner]

I will agree with you that there was ritual bathing/washing. The Dead Sea Scrolls do mention it. Let leave it at that. Here is a link to ritual bathing: However, I do not speak to its correctness. You would have to go to the Jewish section of this forum and ask your question there.

Ritual washing in Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't question it. And my sources for the Hebraic tradition go beyond Wikipedia. I'm saying that Xian baptism arose from an earlier practice, expanded upon it and imbued it with deeper theological implications.

 

[Strength & Honor]

Strength & Honor,
There was NO baptism in the Hebrew Scriptures!!!
Baptism was started by John the Baptist, called John's Baptism, Acts 19:1-7.
This baptism was for forgiveness of sins, and only for the Jews, because they were in a Covenant relationship with God, and had broken the Covenant, many times, Acts 2:36-40.
After the Jews were baptized with John' baptism, they then had to be baptized again, in the same baptism the Gentiles later got baptized, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matt 28:19,20.
Peter likened baptism to being in the ARK of Noah's day. This is because it is the only way to salvation, 1Pet 3:18-21.
The reason that baptism was a requirement was to symbolize the death of the old body and the beginning of a new life, the Christian Way. Baptism symbolized going into the grave and then being raised up again.
The Bible tells us that all the ones who accepted Jesus as the Messiah in the first century, received Holy Spirit, which symbolized that they were to be ADOPTED by God as His Sons, and were to be CO-Rulers with Jesus during the 1000 year Judgement Day, Rev 20:4-6, Rom 8:14-17. This is what Jesus was talking about when he talked to Nicodemus, about being BORN AGAIN, at John 3:3-8.
Al the ones who accepted Jesus as the Messiah would redeive the same resurrection that Jesus received, to heaven as IMMORTAL SPIRIT creatures, Rom 6:3-6, 1Cor 15:51-54, 1Pet 3:18,19. In the spirit state, Jesus went and preached to the wicked spirits who were locked up in spirit prison, TARTARUS, 2Pet 2:4, Jude 6.
Baptism was a new thing, and was for all who wanted to become Christians, Matt 28:19,20. The Jews were ALL under a covenant relationship with God and needed nothing to show their loyalty, but obedience, Deut 5:1-3.
So just because people call themselves Christian, does not mean that they ARE Christian. NOMINAL Christians are not pleasing to God, there is a special WAY for Christians today, the same as in the Mosaic dispensation, Acts 9:2, 19:9,23, 22:4.
The nation of Israel was God's special people out of all other people, Ex 19:5,6, Deut 7:6, 14:1,2, Isa 43:10-13. God gave His Commandments to NO OTHER Nation, Deut 4:6-8, Ps 147:19,20, 1Chron 17:21.

Please read the rest of this thread which addresses much of this. I am not looking for examlpes of baptism in the OT, but rather symbols of it - events or stories that could be interpreted as forshadowings of it. The story of Noah is not an example of baptism, but rather a symbol of it as Peter points out. I'm looking for more examples of this.

 

[Strength & Honor]

Does anyone think that the story of Elijah being taken up to heaven could be one of these symbols or types? According to 2 Kings 2:7-11, before Elijah was taken up to heaven, he and Elisha crossed the Jordan River.

Thoughts?

 

[katiemygirl]

There have been several discussions about baptism here lately (which I love, BTW). As a way of building on that ongoing discussion, I’d like to pose a question to you on the forums.

Do you believe that there is any value in looking for Old Testament symbols of baptism? Does it prove anything regarding a particular stance on baptism? Is it helpful to the discussion? What can we learn from them? What specific examples can you think of?

Here's mine, the classic: Peter, in his first epistle, relates baptism to the story of Noah.

1 Pet 3: 20-21: “…when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”

Thoughts?

Very good topic.
Circumcision is a foreshadow of baptism. I'll write more on this later, but for now circumcision identified one as a member of God's special people and separated them from the rest of the world. Baptism puts christians into the body, His spiritual Kindom, and separates them from the world. More later.
Katie

 

[jtartar]

Does anyone think that the story of Elijah being taken up to heaven could be one of these symbols or types? According to 2 Kings 2:7-11, before Elijah was taken up to heaven, he and Elisha crossed the Jordan River.

Thoughts?

Strength & Honor,
What you ask about Elijah as a symbol would have to be really a symbol, because if you read 2Chron 21:12, it seems that Elijah did not go to heaven, but to the heavens, meaning into the air.
Consider that a letter was received from Elijah about 12 years after the account with Elishah where the firery war chariot carried him Elijah heavenward.
The fact is: Jesus said that NO ONE had ascended to heaven up to the time that Jesus walked the earth, John 3:13.
That no one had ascended to heaven also meant that David, A Man after God's own heart did not ascent to heaven, Acts 13:22, 2:34.
Jesus opened the way for men to be resurrected to heaven, Heb 6:19,20, 9:8,9, 10:19,20, Matt 27:50,51.
Consider too what was recorded at Matt 11:12. Notice that from the days of John the Baptist UNTIL NOW the Kingdom of the Heavens was what men were reaching for. John had been killed earlier.

 

[diosangpastol]

Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

and he who does not baptized will be condemned

 

[angellous_evangellous]

There have been several discussions about baptism here lately (which I love, BTW). As a way of building on that ongoing discussion, I’d like to pose a question to you on the forums.

Do you believe that there is any value in looking for Old Testament symbols of baptism? Does it prove anything regarding a particular stance on baptism? Is it helpful to the discussion? What can we learn from them? What specific examples can you think of?

Here's mine, the classic: Peter, in his first epistle, relates baptism to the story of Noah.

1 Pet 3: 20-21: “…when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”

Thoughts?

You've got it precisely backwards.

NT baptism is a sign of God's faithfulness in the OT. There's no sign of Christian baptism in the OT, it's the other way around.

 

[Strength & Honor]

You've got it precisely backwards.

NT baptism is a sign of God's faithfulness in the OT. There's no sign of Christian baptism in the OT, it's the other way around.

What do you mean, exactly?

I guess I take the view that God had the end in mind from the beginning. So, I suppose my thinking is that God always knew that baptism would play a major role in his plan for salvation. God obviously foreshadowed the death of Christ in the OT with the sacrificial lamb and the blood. I'm just thinking of ways in which He might have foreshadowed baptism as well. I don't think any of these (with the possible exception of the 1 Peter passage, as it is mentioned specifically by a NT writer) are worth being dogmatic about, but it's interesting to note possible signs that God had posted regarding baptism along the way leading up to the cross.