Bahaism:Which Kitab(s)/books were not written/authored by Baha'u'llah but by God?

[paarsurrey]

Which Kitab(s)/books were not written by Baha'u'llah but he claimed to be authored by God, and not by Baha'u'llah himself?

Anybody Bahai or non-Bahai, please

Regards

 

[danieldemol]

Welcome back,
In the same manner the Quran is authored by God, but relayed to us via Muhammad, the books of Baha'u'llah are considered authored by God, but spoken or written to us via Baha'u'llah
Kind regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Welcome back,
In the same manner the Quran is authored by God, but relayed to us via Muhammad, the books of Baha'u'llah are considered authored by God, but spoken or written to us via Baha'u'llah
Kind regards

Muhammad did not write or author Quran, it is authored by God:

[15:10] Verily, We Ourself have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian.

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Muhammad did not write or author Quran, it is authored by God:

[15:10] Verily, We Ourself have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian.

Regards

No Problem, in Case of the Bahai Revelation, God has come down and has written His Books:


"The second blast hath been blown on the trumpet. On whom are ye gazing? This is your Lord, the God of Mercy. ....This is the Day whereon the All-Merciful hath come down in the clouds of knowledge, clothed with manifest sovereignty.
.... Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence."

Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, and mistake it for light. Far from God be what they fondly imagine! Say: Whether ye rejoice or whether ye burst for fury, the heavens are cleft asunder, and God hath come down, invested with radiant sovereignty. All created things are heard exclaiming: ‘The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.’

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 98-99

 

[paarsurrey]

No Problem, in Case of the Bahai Revelation, God has come down and has written His Books:

"The second blast hath been blown on the trumpet. On whom are ye gazing? This is your Lord, the God of Mercy. ....This is the Day whereon the All-Merciful hath come down in the clouds of knowledge, clothed with manifest sovereignty.
.... Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence."

Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, and mistake it for light. Far from God be what they fondly imagine! Say: Whether ye rejoice or whether ye burst for fury, the heavens are cleft asunder, and God hath come down, invested with radiant sovereignty. All created things are heard exclaiming: ‘The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.’

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 98-99

I give the whole contents on the page 98-99 of "Proclamation of Bahaullah":

“PERUSED YE NOT THE QUR’ÁN? READ IT, THAT HAPLY YE MAY…”

98
PERUSED ye not the Qur’án? Read it, that haply ye may find the Truth, for this Book is verily the Straight Path. This is the Way of God unto all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. If ye have been careless of the Qur’án, the Bayán cannot be regarded to be remote from you. Behold it open before your eyes. Read ye its verses, lest perchance ye desist from committing that which will cause the Messengers of God to mourn and lament.
Speed out of your sepulchres. How long will ye sleep? The second blast hath been blown on the trumpet. On whom are ye gazing? This is your Lord, the God of Mercy. Witness how ye gainsay His signs! The earth hath quaked with a great quaking, and cast forth her burdens. Will ye not admit it? Say: Will ye not recognize how the mountains have become like flocks of wool, how the people are sore vexed at the awful majesty of the Cause of God? Witness how their houses are empty ruins, and they themselves a drowned host.
This is the Day whereon the All-Merciful hath come down in the clouds of knowledge, clothed with manifest sovereignty. He well knoweth the actions of men. He it is Whose glory none can mistake, could ye but comprehend it. The heaven of every religion hath been rent, and the earth of human understanding been cleft asunder, and the angels of God are seen descending. Say: This is the Day of mutual deceit; whither do ye flee? The mountains have passed away, and the heavens have been folded together, 99 and the whole earth is held within His grasp, could ye but understand it. Who is it that can protect you? None, by Him Who is the All-Merciful! None, except God, the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the Beneficent. Every woman that hath had a burden in her womb hath cast her burden. We see men drunken in this Day, the Day in which men and angels have been gathered together.
Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. Paradise is on your right hand, and hath been brought nigh unto you, while Hell hath been made to blaze. Witness its devouring flame. Haste ye to enter into Paradise, as a token of Our mercy unto you, and drink ye from the hands of the All-Merciful the Wine that is life indeed.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 98-99
"PERUSED ye not the Qur’án? Read it, that haply ye may find the Truth, for this Book is verily the Straight Path. This is the Way of God unto all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth"

I agree with the words ".....Quran....- for this Book is verily the Straight Path. This is the Way of God unto all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth."
My question is put very humbly here. Did Bahaullah read and understand Quran correctly? If he did read it and understand it correctly, only then he is/was on the right path. Did he? Please
Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

My question is put very humbly here. Did Bahaullah read and understand Quran correctly? If he did read it and understand it correctly, only then he is/was on the right path. Did he? Please
Regards

Bahaullah says He is Manifestation of God, and He is the All-knowing. So, according to Bahaullah, He did not read Quran or other books, but He knew them because His Spirit is like a Mirror reflecting the knowledge of God. According to the Bab and Bahaullah, it was Their Holy reality who had revealed Quran. I know it sounds strange and for many people unbelievable, but according to Bahai Scriptures, All Messengers of God, have the same Spiritual reality, which is the Primal Point. From that Primal point all things came to existence. In short, in Bahai View, Spirit of Bahaullah was the One who revealed the Quran.

 

[paarsurrey]

Bahaullah says He is Manifestation of God, and He is the All-knowing. So, according to Bahaullah, He did not read Quran or other books, but He knew them because His Spirit is like a Mirror reflecting the knowledge of God. According to the Bab and Bahaullah, it was Their Holy reality who had revealed Quran. I know it sounds strange and for many people unbelievable, but according to Bahai Scriptures, All Messengers of God, have the same Spiritual reality, which is the Primal Point. From that Primal point all things came to existence. In short, in Bahai View, Spirit of Bahaullah was the One who revealed the Quran.

"All Messengers of God, have the same Spiritual reality, which is the Primal Point. From that Primal point all things came to existence."

In one of the posts one Bahai* wrote that no Bahai believes that Bahaullah ever claimed to be God literally.Right? Please
So Bahaullah could not reveal Quran to Muhammad. Right? Please
Regards

___________
*Post #27 from friend danieldemol, may please be referred.

 

[paarsurrey]

Bahaullah says He is Manifestation of God, and He is the All-knowing. So, according to Bahaullah, He did not read Quran or other books, but He knew them because His Spirit is like a Mirror reflecting the knowledge of God. According to the Bab and Bahaullah, it was Their Holy reality who had revealed Quran. I know it sounds strange and for many people unbelievable, but according to Bahai Scriptures, All Messengers of God, have the same Spiritual reality, which is the Primal Point. From that Primal point all things came to existence. In short, in Bahai View, Spirit of Bahaullah was the One who revealed the Quran.

"All Messengers of God, have the same Spiritual reality, which is the Primal Point. From that Primal point all things came to existence."

Bahaullah did not claim to be a messenger/prophet of Allah (God). Did he? Please
If yes, please quote from a Kitab/book of him with reference, please.
Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahaullah did not claim to be a messenger/prophet of Allah (God). Did he? Please If yes, please quote from a Kitab/book of him with reference, please. Regards

The best way to answer this question is to read the Kitab-i-iqan. After reading this book it opens the way to many thoughts on this subject.

I have to confess that after 33 years as a Baha'i and Reading many Writings, the Station of Baha'u'llah is still out of the full grasp of my mind. Each time I think that I have the ideas set, I read something else and I have to reconsider.

Baha'u'llah says of all Gods Messengers, that would include Him; "...Even as in the “Beginning that hath no beginnings” the term “last” is truly applicable unto Him who is the Educator of the visible and of the invisible, in like manner, are the terms “first” and “last” applicable unto His Manifestations."

A little further on Baha'u'llah says

"...And, now, strive thou to comprehend the meaning of this saying of ‘Alí, the Commander of the Faithful: “Piercing the veils of glory, unaided.” Among these “veils of glory” are the divines and doctors living in the days of the Manifestation of God, who, because of their want of discernment and their love and eagerness for leadership, have failed to submit to the Cause of God, nay, have even refused to incline their ears unto the divine Melody. “They have thrust their fingers into their ears.”

Now as we move on we will note thet prophets are also called Manifestations;

"...It is clear and evident that whenever the Manifestations of Holiness were revealed, the divines of their day have hindered the people from attaining unto the way of truth. To this testify the records of all the scriptures and heavenly books. Not one Prophet of God was made manifest Who did not fall a victim to the relentless hate, to the denunciation, denial, and execration of the clerics of His day!"

Then Baha'u'llah tells us to recognize the Manifestation is to obtain the presence of God;

"...May God assist us and assist you, O concourse of the Spirit! that perchance ye may in the time of His Manifestation be graciously aided to perform such deeds, and may in His days attain unto the Presence of God."

About Gods Creation "...His creation no end hath overtaken, and it hath ever existed from the “Beginning that hath no beginning”; and the Manifestations of His Beauty no beginning hath beheld, and they will continue to the “End that knoweth no end.” Ponder this utterance in thine heart, and reflect how it is applicable unto all these holy Souls".

As a final comment in this post this passage tells us that it is the Term 'Seal of the Prophets" that have stopped beleivers in Muhammad from accepting the Presence of God in this Day.

"....And yet, through the mystery of the former verse, they have turned away from the grace promised by the latter, despite the fact that “attainment unto the divine Presence” in the “Day of Resurrection” is explicitly stated in the Book. It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause, and by “attainment unto the divine Presence” is meant attainment unto the presence of His Beauty in the person of His Manifestation. For verily, “No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision.” Notwithstanding all these indubitable facts and lucid statements, they have foolishly clung to the term “seal,” and remained utterly deprived of the recognition of Him Who is the Revealer of both the Seal and the Beginning, in the day of His presence. “If God should chastise men for their perverse doings, He would not leave upon the earth a moving thing! But to an appointed time doth He respite them.” (Quoted from pages 161-200, Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 161-200)

This book is really a great work that needs to be considered.

Be well, Be Happy, Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"All Messengers of God, have the same Spiritual reality, which is the Primal Point. From that Primal point all things came to existence."

In one of the posts one Bahai* wrote that no Bahai believes that Bahaullah ever claimed to be God literally.Right? Please
So Bahaullah could not reveal Quran to Muhammad. Right? Please
Regards

___________
*Post #27 from friend danieldemol, may please be referred.

Let's remember the Analogy of the Mirror and the Sun.
If a Mirror is facing the Sun, what do we see in the Mirror? We see the Sun in the Mirror.
So, if we are talking about the Mirror, it is not the Sun. If we are talking about the image in the Mirror, we can say, we see the Sun in the Mirror.

This analogy may be used to understand relationship between Bahaullah and God.

The individuality of Bahaullah is Like the Mirror. That Mirror is not God. It is the Messengership and Prophethood. But the Attributes that are Manifested in the Mirror of the Soul of Bahaullah, are, Attributes of God. Bahaullah is a Mirror, in whom we see the image of the Sun of Truth. Sun of Truth is the God who revealed the Quran. So, the Sun of Truth, created a Mirror by the Name Baha, and manifested Himself in the Mirror. Now, when God speaks, it is reflected on the Mirror, and when we look at Bahaullah, we see God speaks.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"All Messengers of God, have the same Spiritual reality, which is the Primal Point. From that Primal point all things came to existence."

Bahaullah did not claim to be a messenger/prophet of Allah (God). Did he? Please
If yes, please quote from a Kitab/book of him with reference, please.
Regards

Bahaullah said the Messengers are Manifestations of God, and that includes Himself.
The Mirror, which is the individuality of Bahaullah, is the Messenger of God who is a created thing. The attributes that are Manifested in the Mirror, is the image of God, who is the Creator, not created.

I have already quoted some verses of Bahaullah, in some of them, you see Bahaullah says, He is not God, but a servant of God. I also have quoted some verses of Bahaullah, who says, He is God.
Those instances when Bahaullah says, He is not God, it is the Mirror who speaks. That is the individuality of Bahaullah.
In the other verses, that Bahaullah speaks as God, that is God who speaks through Bahaullah, by Manifesting His Will and attributes in the Person of Bahaullah.
Do you think God cannot create a Mirror?
Bahaullah says, Meeting with Lord who was promised in Quran, is the God who Manifested Himself in Him.

 

[paarsurrey]

Bahaullah said the Messengers are Manifestations of God, and that includes Himself.
The Mirror, which is the individuality of Bahaullah, is the Messenger of God who is a created thing. The attributes that are Manifested in the Mirror, is the image of God, who is the Creator, not created.

I have already quoted some verses of Bahaullah, in some of them, you see Bahaullah says, He is not God, but a servant of God. I also have quoted some verses of Bahaullah, who says, He is God.
Those instances when Bahaullah says, He is not God, it is the Mirror who speaks. That is the individuality of Bahaullah.
In the other verses, that Bahaullah speaks as God, that is God who speaks through Bahaullah, by Manifesting His Will and attributes in the Person of Bahaullah.
Do you think God cannot create a Mirror?


Bahaullah says, Meeting with Lord who was promised in Quran, is the God who Manifested Himself in Him.

"I have already quoted some verses of Baha'u'llah, in some of them, you see Baha'u'llah says, He is not God, but a servant of God. I also have quoted some verses of Baha'u'llah, who says, He is God."

This make Baha'u'llah a confused person, confusing only his followers with contradictory statements. Right? Please
Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This make Baha'u'llah a confused person, confusing only his followers with contradictory statements. Right? Please Regards

Baha'u'llah has explained this as the Twofold Station of a Messenger of God.

Firstly they are Born a Human upon this earth and are bound to eat and drink and sleep as all Humans must do. In this condition they are men just like us and they are seen to do as we do. Eat, Sleep, Love, Pray etc. The thing to note here though is, that from a very early age they are seen to be extraordinary Men, their thoughts are not our thoughts, their actions are not our actions. This is the Station of the servant, Christ tells us in this way "I am but a man like others".

Secondly is the Station of the Messenger of God, God perfect reflection upon this earth. When we see the Holy Spirit within that Mirror, the Spirit they are born with, we see all we can of God. In this Station they are God.

Can you then see how this is not a contraction? If you wish this is Baha'u'llah's explanation on that subject - Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"I have already quoted some verses of Baha'u'llah, in some of them, you see Baha'u'llah says, He is not God, but a servant of God. I also have quoted some verses of Baha'u'llah, who says, He is God."

This make Baha'u'llah a confused person, confusing only his followers with contradictory statements. Right? Please
Regards

No, Bahaullah makes it very clear to me, when He gives the Analogy of the Mirror and the Sun.
I have not understood why the Analogy is not clear to you. It is quite clear and simple, isn't it?

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha'u'llah has explained this as the Twofold Station of a Messenger of God.

Firstly they are Born a Human upon this earth and are bound to eat and drink and sleep as all Humans must do. In this condition they are men just like us and they are seen to do as we do. Eat, Sleep, Love, Pray etc. The thing to note here though is, that from a very early age they are seen to be extraordinary Men, their thoughts are not our thoughts, their actions are not our actions. This is the Station of the servant, Christ tells us in this way "I am but a man like others".

Secondly is the Station of the Messenger of God, God perfect reflection upon this earth. When we see the Holy Spirit within that Mirror, the Spirit they are born with, we see all we can of God. In this Station they are God.

Can you then see how this is not a contraction? If you wish this is Baha'u'llah's explanation on that subject - Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56

Regards Tony

Bahaullah's understanding is not correct. God is manifest in everything with his attributes, in the inanimate/s and the animates , that does not make all of them gods. Bahaullah has clearly mentioned that Quran is secure and protected in its original texts. Quran clearly states:
Aal-e-`Imran Chapter 3 : Verse 80

It is not possible for a man that Allah should give him the Book and dominion and prophethood, and then he should say to men: ‘Be servants to me and not to Allah;’ but he would say: ‘Be solely devoted to the Lord because you teach the Book and because you study it.’
Unquote

1. So Bahaullah cannot be god per se and tell the people to accept him as god.If he said so, then he sure was wrong. Wasn't he? Please
2. Bahaullah did not correctly understand many clear and unambiguous verses of Quran, so Quran was not revealed by him as god to Muhammad, as he and Bahais claim. Right? Please

Please note that I am not against Bahaullah or the Bahais. Bahaullah has died, he cannot correct himself now but the Bahais should understand and correct themselves, if they like, out of their own free will. Please
Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I Thank you for the chat. I would offer a Baha'i only worships God, who is Allah for the Muslims. Just as Muhammad was a Messenger,of God (Peace be upon Him), so it is with Baha'u'llah.

I noted Investigate Truth has also given many explanations which show the two fold station of Muhammad and Baha'u'llah. Thus I will leave it there. Again, thank you

May you be well and be happy always. Regards Tony