Bahai without Muhammad, Sufism without Islam

[DharmaCatLamp]

Howdy!

I recently had a previous event come to mind. I had met some Bahais and we were talking about religion. The thing that came up was that I didn't believe Muhammad was a prophet but that he was central to Bahai. We ended up talking for awhile never really got past the issue.

So I was wondering, could you be Bahai without believing Muhammad was prophet? I just wanted to hear what Bahai's thought about that.

I had also been thinking about Sufism and how one could embrace quite a bit of Sufism without having to embrace Islam. The book I am reading right now which is a collection of treatises by Ibn Ajiba makes mention of Islam and Muhammad for instance but the concept of oneness is much more central. Whereas the books I have on the Chishti order have Muhammad and Islamic orthodoxy in a much more central role. One could read Rumi without being a Muslim but that also doesn't make one a Sufi.

I have my own opinions on these things but thought it might be interesting to ask what other people thought.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Howdy!

I recently had a previous event come to mind. I had met some Bahais and we were talking about religion. The thing that came up was that I didn't believe Muhammad was a prophet but that he was central to Bahai. We ended up talking for awhile never really got past the issue.

So I was wondering, could you be Bahai without believing Muhammad was prophet? I just wanted to hear what Bahai's thought about that.

I had also been thinking about Sufism and how one could embrace quite a bit of Sufism without having to embrace Islam. The book I am reading right now which is a collection of treatises by Ibn Ajiba makes mention of Islam and Muhammad for instance but the concept of oneness is much more central. Whereas the books I have on the Chishti order have Muhammad and Islamic orthodoxy in a much more central role. One could read Rumi without being a Muslim but that also doesn't make one a Sufi.

I have my own opinions on these things but thought it might be interesting to ask what other people thought.

When I practiced sufism my teacher told me "you do not have to be a Muslim to become a Sufi, but you will become a Muslim through the practice of sufism"

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So I was wondering, could you be Bahai without believing Muhammad was prophet? I just wanted to hear what Bahai's thought about that.

A Baha'i embraces all the Messengers and Prophets, to which Muhammad is the seal of the Prophets. That is the message. It cannot be taken out of the Message.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

Howdy!

I recently had a previous event come to mind. I had met some Bahais and we were talking about religion. The thing that came up was that I didn't believe Muhammad was a prophet but that he was central to Bahai. We ended up talking for awhile never really got past the issue.

So I was wondering, could you be Bahai without believing Muhammad was prophet? I just wanted to hear what Bahai's thought about that.

I had also been thinking about Sufism and how one could embrace quite a bit of Sufism without having to embrace Islam. The book I am reading right now which is a collection of treatises by Ibn Ajiba makes mention of Islam and Muhammad for instance but the concept of oneness is much more central. Whereas the books I have on the Chishti order have Muhammad and Islamic orthodoxy in a much more central role. One could read Rumi without being a Muslim but that also doesn't make one a Sufi.

I have my own opinions on these things but thought it might be interesting to ask what other people thought.

Hi Dharmacat!

Welcome and thank you for your questions.

I’m a Baha’i of about 45 years. I fell in love with the teachings and even tried to join this religion twice because at first I didn’t even believe in God. Lol

Maybe you can tell us what it is that concerns you about Muhammad.

Anyway, at first I knew nothing about other faiths except Christianity because I was born a catholic. But after maybe 20 years and reading what Baha’u’llah and Abdul-Baha said about Muhammad instead of the misinformation going around, I took an interest in it.

Then gradually, as my knowledge grew, I began to ‘like’ just a little, Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad etc. Then as I dug deeper I fell in love with all truth, with all the religions because Baha’u’llah teaches us they are all from God.

So it takes time. Now I adore the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita and all the Holy Books as they all teach us to be of virtuous and upright character. There’s a movie about Muhammad on YouTube. I think it’s called the Message.

Anyway, when I found out the real truth about all the faiths including Muhammad it so liberating to love all truth.

 

[Brian2]

Hi Dharmacat!

Welcome and thank you for your questions.

I’m a Baha’i of about 45 years. I fell in love with the teachings and even tried to join this religion twice because at first I didn’t even believe in God. Lol

Maybe you can tell us what it is that concerns you about Muhammad.

Anyway, at first I knew nothing about other faiths except Christianity because I was born a catholic. But after maybe 20 years and reading what Baha’u’llah and Abdul-Baha said about Muhammad instead of the misinformation going around, I took an interest in it.

Then gradually, as my knowledge grew, I began to ‘like’ just a little, Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad etc. Then as I dug deeper I fell in love with all truth, with all the religions because Baha’u’llah teaches us they are all from God.

So it takes time. Now I adore the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita and all the Holy Books as they all teach us to be of virtuous and upright character. There’s a movie about Muhammad on YouTube. I think it’s called the Message.

Anyway, when I found out the real truth about all the faiths including Muhammad it so liberating to love all truth.

It's easy, just believe what Baha'u'llah says about Muhammad and Jesus and Krishna and Moses and Buddha etc and deny much of the teachings of these religious leaders.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It's easy, just believe what Baha'u'llah says about Muhammad and Jesus and Krishna and Moses and Buddha etc and deny much of the teachings of these religious leaders.

It is indeed a bounty to believe in them all. The Dhamapadda, the Gita, the Gospels and Quran all food for the soul.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The older manifestations are all 'have been', their message is corrupted. The one important in this age is Bahaollah, because he brings the latest word of God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The older manifestations are all 'have been', their message is corrupted. The one important in this age is Bahaollah, because he brings the latest word of God.

Luckily we are not able to separate one of those Messages from that of Baha’u’llah, if we reject one, we reject them all.

The scriptures are all embraced, but in the light of new spiritual capacities, new frames of references.

Thos needs to be studied, as truth is relative.

Your Frame of Reference Influences Your Decision Making

So there is no Baha'i Faith, if we remove even one of the Messengers gone before, they are All One in Spirit.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

So there is no Baha'i Faith, if we remove even one of the Messengers gone before, they are All One in Spirit.

This is confusing to me.

Moses, a messenger per Baha'i faith, setup a system of ritual and priests. This is the subject of the majority of the book of Leviticus.

Baha'u'llah abolished clergy ( priests ) and ritual.

How is this reconciled if denying one message denies them all? It seems as if the two messengers fundamentally disagree?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is confusing to me.

Moses, a messenger per Baha'i faith, setup a system of ritual and priests. This is the subject of the majority of the book of Leviticus.

Baha'u'llah abolished clergy ( priests ) and ritual.

How is this reconciled if denying one message denies them all? It seems as if the two messengers fundamentally disagree?

Baha'u'llah explains this fully in the Kitab-i-iqan. If you get a chance that really explains the progression of Faith under One God.

In the Kitab-i-iqan, Baha'u'llah also asked us to consider that Moses killed a man, was known as a murderer.

So this is explained by the twofold station of the Messenger and that there is the unchangeable parts of the Laws given of God, and the Changeable parts suited to the age they are given

Priests are one of the Changeable Laws. We have come from the ages where education was the domain of the priests who guided the flocks. In this age knowledge is the responsibility of each and every soul.

Baha'u'llah gave the hidden words, which he offered is the Essence of all the past Holy books. It was mainly addressed to the leaders and the priests of all past faiths.

This is one of those hidden words.

"O YE THAT ARE FOOLISH, YET HAVE A NAME TO BE WISE! Wherefore do ye wear the guise of shepherds, when inwardly ye have become wolves, intent upon My flock? Ye are even as the star, which riseth ere the dawn, and which, though it seem radiant and luminous, leadeth the wayfarers of My city astray into the paths of perdition."

Bahá’u’lláh also offered that in this age all power of faith has been taken from the leaders of religion and the priests and given to each soul.

Shoghi Effendi gave us an amazing book called "The Promised Day has Come", this is a must read for any Baha'i, but I recommend it for anyone who wants to know what the Baha'i Faith is. This is an extract about the process of change that was put in place by the Message of Baha’u’llah.

"....That same process which, swiftly and tragically, sealed the doom of kings and emperors, and extinguished their dynasties, has operated in the case of the ecclesiastical leaders of both Christianity and Islám, damaging their prestige, and, in some cases, overthrowing their highest institutions. “Power hath been seized” indeed from both “kings and ecclesiastics.” The glory of the former has been eclipsed, the power of the latter irretrievably lost.
Those leaders who exercised guidance and control over the ecclesiastical hierarchies of their respective religions have, likewise, been appealed to, warned, and reproved by Bahá’u’lláh, in terms no less uncertain than those in which the sovereigns who presided over the destinies of their subjects have been addressed...." Link to that section -
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 74-84

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

So there is no Baha'i Faith, if we remove even one of the Messengers gone before, they are All One in Spirit.

However, Bahai interpretation is different from those which people of these religions follow, even with the Abrahamic religions, as they have been interpreted wrongly.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

However, Bahai interpretation is different from those which people of these religions follow, even with the Abrahamic religions, as they have been interpreted wrongly.

I see a greater clarity can only be found when we look at all the Messages.

Predudices of religion can prevent us seeing the common goals.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

But that the messages of other religions including those of Abrahamic religions have been misinterpreted is a fact according to Bahais.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But that the messages of other religions including those of Abrahamic religions have been misinterpreted is a fact according to Bahais.

We all have our choices.

Let's take Christianity for an example. Why do you think there are so many divisions into different churches, all with different names, all having different thoughts on what it is to follow Jesus?

Baha'u'llah gives an explanation that enable the church to be one again, and enables all Faiths to embrace each Messenger.

Personaly I thought that was a good choice.

Regards Tony

 

[Brian2]

The older manifestations are all 'have been', their message is corrupted. The one important in this age is Bahaollah, because he brings the latest word of God.

The new and improved word of God for this age.

 

[Brian2]

It is indeed a bounty to believe in them all. The Dhamapadda, the Gita, the Gospels and Quran all food for the soul.

You say you believe in them all but the reality is that you believe in Baha'u'llah and listen to what he says and deny what the others say if they contradict what he says.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You say you believe in them all but the reality is that you believe in Baha'u'llah and listen to what he says and deny what the others say if they contradict what he says.

You like trolling I noticed.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

You say you believe in them all but the reality is that you believe in Baha'u'llah and listen to what he says and deny what the others say if they contradict what he says.

No I definitely accept them all. One of the main reasons I accepted Baha’u’llah is because I believed so strongly in Christ. For me to deny Baha’u’llah would be denying Christ.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Let's take Christianity for an example. Why do you think there are so many divisions into different churches, all with different names, all having different thoughts on what it is to follow Jesus?

Why not take the interpretation of any of the many divisions of different churches and go by that? That is equally good. You are not offering any additional evidence to prove that the Bahai faith founder was a messenger / manifestation of Allah (other than his vision of the heavenly maiden).

 

[Aupmanyav]

The new and improved word of God for this age.

Yeah, God's messages always need amendments, problem for messengers. He changed Qiblah, what was wrong with Jerusalem?