Bahai Temples

[Booko]

Thank you Booko. That really is news to me, and very interesting. Why is Jerusalem especially off limits? I guess I'm not seeing the connection between being a Baha'i in Jerusalem and adding to conflict--Baha'is are about the least confrontational folks there are. And who would even know that one is a Baha'i? I've not traveled in that part of the world--is it necessary to carry papers that describe your religion? I really have no idea.

Oh, it's not like Jerusalem is off limits, it's more like there are so many claims from other religions, the fewer of us that show up there, the better.

No, we aren't confrontational, but that doesn't mean we couldn't get caught up in a mess quite by accident.

Anyone can spot a group of Baha'is in Israel pretty easily. It'll be the mixed group of people wandering about, probably speaking different languages as well. Friends of mine on pilgrimage said they could go just about anywhere, and with no outward sign, and people figured they were Baha'is.

I believe you do have to declare your religion on entering the country, but don't quote me on that. Jewscout or Captain Haddock have been recently and would know for certain.

 

[Booko]

I know there are special preparations for actual pilgrimage, but I was unaware of these other restrictions on personal and business travel. Are the restrictions (on Baha'i travel in Israel other than for pilgrimage) coming as guidance from the UHJ, or are they part of an agreement with the government of Israel?

It just occured I should ask, are you aware of the limitations on teaching in Israel?

Basically, we can answer anything we're asked, but as briefly as possible. And we can't bring up the topic anywhere.

If an Israeli citizen wanted to become a Baha'i, they'd have to leave the country to do it. There are no local or national institutions there. Just the UHJ.

 

[lunamoth]

It just occured I should ask, are you aware of the limitations on teaching in Israel?

Basically, we can answer anything we're asked, but as briefly as possible. And we can't bring up the topic anywhere.

If an Israeli citizen wanted to become a Baha'i, they'd have to leave the country to do it. There are no local or national institutions there. Just the UHJ.

Yes, I was aware of the prohibition about teaching Israeli citizens about the Baha'i Faith. I'm sure that actually extends to anywhere, not just in Israel, right?

Forgive me for being dull, but I still am not clear on this part about Baha'is travelling in Israel when it is not part of pilgrimage. If it is discouraged, is this guidance from the UHJ to honor some kind of agreement with Israel or for some other reason, or is the restriction coming from the Israeli government?

Sorry if my question was not clear before. As I said above to Art, this does not jive with my previous understanding. I thought Baha'is were free to travel anywhere in Israel for buisness and pleasure and that getting permission just had to do with the official pilgrimage trip.



luna

 

[BruceDLimber]

I believe you do have to declare your religion on entering the country, but don't quote me on that.

Hi, Laurie!

I don't know whether one "has to declare" one's religion upon arrival in Israel, but as I recall we were asked the purpose of our visit.

And Baha'is arriving on Pilgrimage all carry a letter from the House of Justice inviting them, and it's common practice simply to show this letter to the authorities, who are (of course) familiar with Baha'i pilgrimages. (I really don't remember whether or not the letter said anything like "present this to the immigration authorities" or not.)

Best,

Bruce

 

[lunamoth]

Hi, Laurie!

I don't know whether one "has to declare" one's religion upon arrival in Israel, but as I recall we were asked the purpose of our visit.

And Baha'is arriving on Pilgrimage all carry a letter from the House of Justice inviting them, and it's common practice simply to show this letter to the authorities, who are (of course) familiar with Baha'i pilgrimages. (I really don't remember whether or not the letter said anything like "present this to the immigration authorities" or not.)

Best,

Bruce

Thank you Bruce. My question actually is about Baha'is going to Israel for reasons other than pilgrimage, such as for business or sight-seeing at places other than the World Center.

cheers,
Laurie

 

[oneness]

Greetings, and if I may, I would like to add that the Universal House of Justice not only strives to provide an atmosphere conducive to spiritual upliftment, but also puts particular importance on pilgrims as their 'special' guests. As an example, the main entrance to the seat of the Universal House of Justice is only opened for the pilgrims and not even dignitaries who enter through a modest side door.

In communications prior to pilgrimage, every effort is made to prepare individuals for this spiritual journey, where to provide a meaningful visit, the number of pilgrims has to be limited by space; otherwise all may not be able to enter the shrines at the same time and as the Baha'i community grows, this may well be the case in the future when longer waiting periods may not be practical any longer.

From personal experience, Baha'is on 9 day pilgrimage are allowed to stay longer and/or visit Jerusalem if they wish. However, that was years ago and today it may not be so wise and ultimately one has to be tactful about such issues and choices.

Also, on "special circumstances" Baha'is may ask and be permitted to go for a short 3 day visit, as did I when my father had passed away. The idea is that if one is really in need of spiritual sustenance and upliftment and wishes to do it through visiting the holy places of the world centre, one is welcomed there.

Due to respect for the sensitive nature of the area, Baha'is are asked not to go there for vacation, and do not actively teach the faith there, only answer questions, but as I understand can and do teach Israelis or Jewish people in general elsewhere if interested of course.

 

[ayani]

speaking of Bahai temples, i was recently fortunate in being able to visit the House of Worship in Illinois!

oh my... it was huge and beautiful... a friend and i went for services commemorating the birth of the Bab, and it was very beautiful. wonderful singing, readings from scripture, all in this beautiful place. the dome was incredible- and i was amazed at how well carved and intricate everything was.

i was impressed by the parallel between language i've heard used in Christmas servives and the language used in the birth of the Bab service- a light to the world, etc. very interesting. the people were very friendly and the crowd was diverse.

i'm thankful to have been able to visit. :yes:

 

[arthra]

Thanks for the post Gracie... Yes the House of Worship in Wilmette Illinois is very impressive.. When I first saw it I was travelling there on an "L train" from Chicago and could see it briefly interspersed between trees along the route... Walking towards it I noticed birds flying around the dome as if they were circumnavigating the dome.. It was quite impressive and continues to be after all this time. Originally they proposed to project a light from the apex of the dome into the sky but this idea was discouraged by some regulations. I notice that aviators will use it as a way of orienting themselves.

A good view of the House of Worship from Satellite is available through Google Maps on Yahoo.

:yes:

- Art

 

[Booko]

Thank you Bruce. My question actually is about Baha'is going to Israel for reasons other than pilgrimage, such as for business or sight-seeing at places other than the World Center.

If your work requires you to go, that's ok. If you happen to be on pilgrimage, you can tack a little sight-seeing afterwards, though the House discourages too much of this. If you have immediately family working at the World Center you can come for a short visit.

We could not go to our neighbor's bar mitzvoh if they'd held it in Akka as planned, however. Nor can I just hop a plane and decide I'd like to go on a tour.

Now, obviously, there have been new Baha'is who've done this unwitting. Someone just kindly explains it to those individuals, and then they go home.

 

[lunamoth]

We could not go to our neighbor's bar mitzvoh if they'd held it in Akka as planned, however. Nor can I just hop a plane and decide I'd like to go on a tour.

Why not?

 

[Booko]

speaking of Bahai temples, i was recently fortunate in being able to visit the House of Worship in Illinois!

We got married there over 21 years ago, out in the gardens by the roses.

oh my... it was huge and beautiful... a friend and i went for services commemorating the birth of the Bab, and it was very beautiful. wonderful singing, readings from scripture, all in this beautiful place. the dome was incredible- and i was amazed at how well carved and intricate everything was.

I describe it as "white concrete lacework" but no description really does it justice, eh?

You looked straight up on the inside, yes?

i'm thankful to have been able to visit. :yes:

I'm glad you liked the place!

(The best month for the gardens is May.)

 

[Booko]

Why not?

Because we aren't on pilgrimage and we don't work there and we have no immediate family there?

There's an agreement between the House and the Israeli gov't concerning under what conditions Baha'is are supposed to be in Israel.

It's something that was in place long before, when the area was the British protectorate of Palestine, so it's not like the Israeli gov't put restrictions on us unjustly or anything remotely like that.

It serves as a protection for everyone. We get to be there, but since we keep a very low profile, we don't shake up anyone, and they don't get mad at us for being there.

There have been problems in Israel with other groups sending in missionaries trying to convert people. Neither the Jews nor the Muslims care much for that (no surprise). People get upset, and the risk of violence is very real in a place so unsettled already.

 

[lunamoth]

There's an agreement between the House and the Israeli gov't concerning under what conditions Baha'is are supposed to be in Israel.

Thank you Sharon. The above was what I was trying to figure out: whether the prohibition from the UHJ or from the Israeli Gov'mnt. Apparently it is from the Israeli Gov. So, is it an honor system or do you need to get permission from the Israeli Gov to enter the country? And, if you wanted to just go to Israel to attend your friend's wedding, how would anyone know that you are a Baha'i when you get there? Does Israel really ask for proof of religion of some sort when you enter the country? I'm not saying it's unfair discrimination; just that it seems terribly hard to police.

But people of other religions are allowed to go to Israel for personal reasons that don't have to do with Pilgrimage or work? Sure, if you go in and start passing out teaching materials or something I could understand the problem. But who's going to do that? Baha'is don't proselytize and you are prohibited from teaching in Israel. You probably don't know the answer to these questions, but this whole thing just strikes me as very odd.

People get upset, and the risk of violence is very real in a place so unsettled already.

But other people visit Israel all the time, Christians and Muslims, who are not there for missionary purposes.

Thank you for the info.

Cheers,
luna

 

[Booko]

Thank you Sharon. The above was what I was trying to figure out: whetehr the prohibition from the UHJ or from the Israeli Gov'mnt. Apparently it is from the Israeli Gov.

Well, I don't know the details, but I was under the impression it was more a mutual thing. I'm not sure who broached the subject first, the nascent Israeli gov't, or us. Either one is possible.

So, is it an honor system or do you need to get permission from the Israeli Gov to enter the country.

Oh, it's an honour system as far as I know. It's not like I'd have to get a special visa or anything.

But really, what fun would it be to go to Israel, and then come back and have to pretend to my Baha'i community that I was never there? I want to show slide shows that are so lengthy people yawn! bwa ha ha!

And, if you wanted to just go to Israel to attend your friend's wedding, how would anyone know that you are a Baha'i when you get there? Does Israel really ask for proof of religion of some sort when you enter the country? I'm not saying it's unfair discrimination; just that it seems terribly hard to police.

Oh, I could go to the bar mitzvah if I really wanted to. But I'd be disobeying the House and Israeli law at the same time. I don't think it's worth tempting fate like that.

And besides, my neighbor had his bar mitzvah here anyway, so I still got to go. I like the shul where they go and its congregation, and look forward to any opportunity to go there. I don't understand the Hebrew, but I can follow along on the English side of the Chumash.

But people of other religions are allowed to go to Israel for personal reasons that don't have to do with Pilgrimage or work?

Yes, but there are some people who, if they are caught passing out pamphlets there, will be in some trouble.

If a Christian wanted to make a pilgrimage to Nazareth and Bethlehem, I'm not aware of any obstacle other than the money for the plane tickets and getting time off work.

Sure, if you go in and start passing out teaching materials or something I could understand the problem. But who's going to do that? Baha'is don't proselytize and you are prohibited from teaching in Israel. You probably don't know the answer to these questions, but this whole thing just strikes me as very odd.

We're prohibited from teaching in Israel as part of that same agreement that prevents me from just hopping a plane and going there for my own personal reasons.

It's not so odd, really. Remember, the whole point of Israel is to have a *Jewish* state. Not in the sense that everyone has to be Jewish (obviously), but that its principles should be based in Jewish traditions in some way.

Now, exactly how does that work with "soon shall all that dwell on Earth be enlisted under these banners?" I'm sure you see what I mean. We're supposed to "consort with the followers of all religions" (oh, you know the quote) too, and it's really not respectful of us even consider "teaching" there.

We do some door to door teaching here in Atlanta. Imagine how that would work in Israel? Uh...no thanks! It would be disruptive, and really there's enough of the rest of the world. We don't have to offend anyone by teaching in that one country.

Also, remember that to Muslims we are heretics. Imagine what would happen if we went door to door in a Muslim neighborhood teaching anyone interested about the Baha'i Faith. Sounds like a great way to start a riot or to start up efforts to have us removed from Haifa, or hey, maybe worse. Uh...that's not what we had in mind.

Sometimes, it's just better to keep a low profile and since that's what's required to be respectful in this situation, all the more reason to do so.

Also, we have no institutions other than the House in Israel. There are no Local Spiritual Assemblies, and there is no National Spiritual Assembly. So that means there is also no 19-Day Feast.

But other people visit Israel all the time, Christians and Muslims, who are not there for missionary purposes.

Of course. But they are not under the same agreement we are.

Also, Christians and Muslims have been there for centuries. We haven't had that sort of presence there, and no one is exactly "used to" the idea that we "belong" there either.

 

[lunamoth]

Thank you Sharon. I'm out of karma for now so I'll get ya later. : hamster :

BTW, I think the slide show would just have all the more suspense and intrigue if you told your audience at home that you were there incognito. *Plays Mr. Danger Man music in the background...*

luna

 

[Booko]

BTW, I think the slide show would just have all the more suspense and intrigue if you told your audience at home that you were there incognito. *Plays Mr. Danger Man music in the background...*

Maybe if I interspersed pictures of chickens and ducks in with the Shrine of the Bab and the Archives building, I could fool everyone? <hopeful look>