Hi @Jim ,
Good to see you are talking with us again.
That’s fine by me. In fact I’m happy for you to make use of us in that manner.
Obviously you don’t need anyone’s permission to do that. As you appreciate issues to do with LGBTQ+ are potentially very controversial and divisive. How would you anticipate members of this forum responding? My hope is your next thread on this topic is an enlightening discussion but bearing in mind the prevailing climate its a risky move. Let’s hope its a positive experience for you while also presenting the Baha’i Faith in a fair and balanced manner.
I did have another thought. It has been difficult for you to talk with us over the last few days. Now we’re talking about a very sensitive issue where we are likely to have different views. I’m concerned we may regress to being estranged again?
I’m not sure why you believe Bahá’u’lláh would be referring to verses in Leviticus. His followers were Muslim so if anything the Quran would be more relevant.
LGBT in Islam - Wikipedia
I agree somewhat with your statement about sexual orientation. I’m not sure what you mean by gay issues. Would you elaborate?
All the Manifestations of God have promoted marriage between men and women. To explore this theme we could examine Baha’i writings. Bahá’u’lláh has said;
And when He desired to manifest grace and beneficence to men, and to set the world in order, He revealed observances and created laws; among them He established the law of marriage, made it as a fortress for well-being and salvation, and enjoined it upon us in that which was sent down out of the heaven of sanctity in His Most Holy Book.
God hath prescribed matrimony unto you...Enter into wedlock, O people, that ye may bring forth one who will make mention of Me amid My servants. This is My bidding unto you; hold fast to it as an assistance to yourselves.
A selection of extracts from the Bahá’í writings on family life and marriage
Do you think sexual orientation would have been assumed to be heterosexual amongst the majority of peoples? Once again I’d like to understand what you mean by gay issues?
I suppose in regards pederasty we are considering Bahá’u’lláh’s remark in the Kitab-I-Aqdas and why He mentioned it. I wonder if its relevant.
We shrink for very shame, from treating of the subject of boys. Fear ye the Merciful, O peoples of the world! Commit not that which if forbidden you in Our Holy Tablet, and be not of those who rove distractedly in the wilderness of their desires. (Kitab-i-Aqdas, paragraph 107)
Let’s also consider Bahá’u’lláh’s strongly worded verses here:
Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concourse of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions. This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you, could ye but perceive it. He who relateth himself to the All-Merciful and committeth satanic deeds, verily he is not of Me. Unto this beareth witness every atom, pebble, tree and fruit, and beyond them this ever-proclaiming, truthful and trustworthy Tongue. (From a previously untranslated Tablet)
These verses may not sit too comfortably with some of our more liberally minded participants on RF.
Bahá’u’lláh’s Words above are very strong. Shoghi Effendis comments from letters written on his behalf (that have the same weight as the Guardians letters themselves) provides further clarity.
...Bahá'u'lláh has spoken very strongly against this shameful sexual aberration, as He has against adultery and immoral conduct in general. We must try and help the soul to overcome them. (25 October 1949) [3]
No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá'u'lláh, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature
Homosexuality
Based on the above passages I disagree of course.
In some instances it may do:
To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap.
Thanks for talking to us again. I hope my forthright comments and quotes from the Baha’i writings and beloved Guardian won’t deter you from continuing our discussion.
Good to see you are talking with us again.
@adrian009 @Tony Bristow-Stagg Now I’d like to discuss with you my views about homosexuality, before I discuss them any more with other people. Not for us to agree about it, but for me to practice responding to what you say, without falling into contention myself. It’s okay with me for you to say and do whatever you want to.
That’s fine by me. In fact I’m happy for you to make use of us in that manner.
I’m planning to post my view of what Baha’i scriptures say about homosexuality and gay issues, in a debate forum where anyone can post, and ask for people to post any arguments that they can find against my view. Here’s what I’ll be saying:
Obviously you don’t need anyone’s permission to do that. As you appreciate issues to do with LGBTQ+ are potentially very controversial and divisive. How would you anticipate members of this forum responding? My hope is your next thread on this topic is an enlightening discussion but bearing in mind the prevailing climate its a risky move. Let’s hope its a positive experience for you while also presenting the Baha’i Faith in a fair and balanced manner.
I did have another thought. It has been difficult for you to talk with us over the last few days. Now we’re talking about a very sensitive issue where we are likely to have different views. I’m concerned we may regress to being estranged again?
- I see Bahá’u’lláh ratifying the sexual prohibitions in Leviticus, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
I’m not sure why you believe Bahá’u’lláh would be referring to verses in Leviticus. His followers were Muslim so if anything the Quran would be more relevant.
LGBT in Islam - Wikipedia
I agree somewhat with your statement about sexual orientation. I’m not sure what you mean by gay issues. Would you elaborate?
- I see Bahá’u’lláh promoting and regulating marriages between men and women, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
All the Manifestations of God have promoted marriage between men and women. To explore this theme we could examine Baha’i writings. Bahá’u’lláh has said;
And when He desired to manifest grace and beneficence to men, and to set the world in order, He revealed observances and created laws; among them He established the law of marriage, made it as a fortress for well-being and salvation, and enjoined it upon us in that which was sent down out of the heaven of sanctity in His Most Holy Book.
God hath prescribed matrimony unto you...Enter into wedlock, O people, that ye may bring forth one who will make mention of Me amid My servants. This is My bidding unto you; hold fast to it as an assistance to yourselves.
A selection of extracts from the Bahá’í writings on family life and marriage
Do you think sexual orientation would have been assumed to be heterosexual amongst the majority of peoples? Once again I’d like to understand what you mean by gay issues?
- I see Bahá’u’lláh preferring not to discuss pederasty, in a context of permissible marriage partners, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
I suppose in regards pederasty we are considering Bahá’u’lláh’s remark in the Kitab-I-Aqdas and why He mentioned it. I wonder if its relevant.
We shrink for very shame, from treating of the subject of boys. Fear ye the Merciful, O peoples of the world! Commit not that which if forbidden you in Our Holy Tablet, and be not of those who rove distractedly in the wilderness of their desires. (Kitab-i-Aqdas, paragraph 107)
Let’s also consider Bahá’u’lláh’s strongly worded verses here:
Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concourse of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions. This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you, could ye but perceive it. He who relateth himself to the All-Merciful and committeth satanic deeds, verily he is not of Me. Unto this beareth witness every atom, pebble, tree and fruit, and beyond them this ever-proclaiming, truthful and trustworthy Tongue. (From a previously untranslated Tablet)
These verses may not sit too comfortably with some of our more liberally minded participants on RF.
- I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relations. I don’t see any sexual prohibitions other than the ones in Leviticus.
Bahá’u’lláh’s Words above are very strong. Shoghi Effendis comments from letters written on his behalf (that have the same weight as the Guardians letters themselves) provides further clarity.
...Bahá'u'lláh has spoken very strongly against this shameful sexual aberration, as He has against adultery and immoral conduct in general. We must try and help the soul to overcome them. (25 October 1949) [3]
No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá'u'lláh, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature
Homosexuality
- I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against a relationship between two women or two men called a “marriage” or legalized as one.”
Based on the above passages I disagree of course.
- I don’t think that the morality or healthfulness of any sexual activities has anything to do with anyone’s sex type, orientation or gender identity.
In some instances it may do:
To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap.
Thanks for talking to us again. I hope my forthright comments and quotes from the Baha’i writings and beloved Guardian won’t deter you from continuing our discussion.