Autonomy from God

[Thief]

If you are autonomous from God and make the correct choices -they would by what God would have you do, anyway.

However, the finer points not readily apparent will elude man.

Obedience to God (not men) saves a lot of trouble by avoiding wrong choices and consequences.

If by salvation you mean becoming more correct, then this can definitely be done to a certain degree -by those who have never even heard of God.

If it includes eternal life and having your spirit placed within a body which is not subject to death and has extreme powers to manipulate the environment, you're going to encounter a few stumbling blocks.

As for me....I suspect a spiritual 'body'.
A sense of self and local.
Otherwise, moving from one portion of the creation to another would be...'lengthy'.

 

[Shiranui117]

well...precisely. I understand perfectly what you mean. But mine is not faith; I just read the Bible and pick what my heart acknowledges as rightful and divinely inspired. Because it matches with my vision of God.
all right. That makes me a heretic.

If you were once Catholic and have willfully and with full knowledge of your actions abandoned what you understand to be the truth in favor of your own ideas, then yes, you are a heretic. I'm not sure if that term applies to you.

In any case, you cannot honestly call yourself a Catholic if you reject so much of its basic foundation. Not accepting the Immaculate Conception as a dogma? Sure, I can see that. Not believing that the role of the Pope is dogmatic? Dandy, I did the same when I was a Catholic. Disagreeing with Anselmian atonement theory? That's fine too. But rejecting massive portions of the Old and New Testaments, having fundamentally different beliefs about God, believing that Jesus is unnecessary to our salvation, that we don't need God to be saved... You can't call yourself Catholic if you reject much of the basics.

well...I deeply respect your view. But we, she and I, think the exactly opposite thing. That is: Satan wants us to think we are nothing without God. He wants us to think that we are doomed to sin, and so we are inferior to God. But man won't try to stop sinning, if he thinks he's nothing.
We think that by becoming autonomous, man will stop sinning.

You have it completely backwards. Jesus Himself says that we can do nothing without Him--see John 15:4-5:

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

This woman is preaching the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. She is teaching that we do not need God. We do not need to know Him, or obey Him, or follow Him, or have a relationship with Him. Jesus is no different than any other major religious figure.

Contrast all that with what Jesus said in John 14:6... "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'"

And also look at what Jesus says in the Gospels:

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Mark 10:27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

Luke 18:27 But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.”

If we depend on God, and rely on Him, and abide in Jesus, and walk with Jesus in the Holy Spirit under the guidance of God the Father, then we will be saved, because we need Him. But if we reject the Father, if we reject the Son, if we reject the Holy Spirit, then we cannot be saved, for we have rejected the way to salvation.

Satan would have us believe that we don't need God. We don't need the Source of Life. We don't need Him Who created the Heavens and the Earth. We don't need the Lord of Heaven. Satan wants to divide and conquer. He wants to convince the sheep that it will be just fine without the protection and guidance of the shepherd. He wants the sheep to try and go out on its own without the guidance and help of the shepherd, because Satan is a prowling lion, seeking whom he might devour--and once he gets the sheep out on its own, away from the shepherd and foolishly believing that it can go its own way and be just fine, rest assured that the sheep will be devoured.

1 Peter 5:8-10 Be sober, be vigilant; because[c] your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may[d] the God of all grace, who called us[e] to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.

But Jesus says in John 10:
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. . . 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. . . 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”


I would suggest that you pray about these Scriptures that I have shown you--the words of Jesus and of His Apostles. Contrast them with what that woman has been telling you. Who will you believe--Jesus, or that woman?

well...but this woman is still alive, whereas those men are dead.

Wait, are you seriously following the words of this woman over the hand-picked disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, just because she was born 2,000 years later than them? You're basing your religious allegiance on whether the person in question is living or not?

You can base your beliefs off of whatever you like and follow whoever you choose. Just know that the way you are taking is leading you away from Christianity, and into something other. I pray that you will understand this, and that God Himself will show you the Way.

Sorry...I didn't make myself clear. I meant that given that Caiaphas was irremovable in his decision, Jesus had to respect his decision (and so respect his freewill). That's what I meant when I said that he could have never interfered with his freewill. God cannot interfere with our freewill.

God chooses not to, but that doesn't mean that He lacks the ability to.

God cannot kill us.

Have you forgotten the sons of Korah? Or any number of sinners and unrighteous kings in the Old Testament that the Lord slew or had slain? Do me a favor and read Exodus 16:20-40. There God kills a lot of people.

1 Chronicles 13:10 Then the anger of the Lord was aroused against Uzza, and He struck him because he put his hand to the ark; and he died there before God.

2 Chronicles 13:20 So Jeroboam did not recover strength again in the days of Abijah; and the Lord struck him, and he died.

Acts 12:21-23
21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them. 22 And the people kept shouting, “The voice of a god and not of a man!” 23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.

 

[Sabour]

Free will is is having the choice for a person to do what he wants to do and having the option to direct what GOD GRANTS US the way we want.

Autonomy contradicts with the concept that whatever we have it is from God because GOD GRANTED IT TO US.

To God we belong and to Him we shall return.

 

[Etritonakin]

As for me....I suspect a spiritual 'body'.
A sense of self and local.
Otherwise, moving from one portion of the creation to another would be...'lengthy'.

I guess I don't really know exactly what you mean by autonomy from God -but God gave us will -and it is necessary that we choose to do what is good by our will -but also to submit (now there is something scary for many) to the will, authority and government of God -by choice.

We say that God gave us free will -and technically that is correct. He gave us the ability to make choices -which is necessary for independent creativity.

However, God actually gave us a choice between two paths. Life and death. Life requires the government of God to keep the creation from chaos and destruction caused by conflicting wills and a lack of order -resulting eventually in death.
If we were unable to die, such would lead to unimaginable states of misery.

God wants us to be autonomous from him -but this is actually only possible once we submit to his government.

This may sound contradictory, but this is actually the underlying point of the law/grace discussion.

Consider any sort of "reasonable" government.

Everyone has to exist in the same environment, so we have laws governing certain things.

Let's take driving, for example.... assuming that the road systems and laws were made perfect and perfectly safe.... if everyone always drove according to the laws, government in the form of police, surveillance, fines, penalties, etc. would diminish.

Personal responsibility decreases the need for government oversight and management.

So -if we live by the law -we are no longer "under" the law.

The end result is that we can create autonomously throughout the universe -without having to be micro-managed -by eventually choosing to submit to the law......

....rather than the government having to cause us to submit and also receiving unto ourselves the penalties which naturally occur due to transgression of the law.

***********************************

Travel throughout the universe is awesome to think about....

Ezekiel's vision describes living creatures moving about in vehicles which were crafted -or worked....

and we also have verses such as these....

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

so it will definitely be interesting to see what sort of means of travel -or whatever might be -are possible.

Maybe trips would not take as long as we might imagine. Wormholes, teleportation, moving as an emergent pattern -who knows what is possible???

 

[Pegg]

When I speak of autonomy from God, Christians seem to freak out.
This is a fundamental concept of Pelagianism, my personal creed.
But I want to discuss this concept with other Christians, and also Jews and Muslims, just to know the reason why autonomy from God sounds so horrible in their ears.

It is very contradictory to believe in freewill and yet not to believe in personal autonomy.
Because logic says that freewill implies necessarily choice. and choices are the evidence of autonomy. We choose every second of our life and God has nothing to do with that.
so we Pelagians say that we don't need any God to save ourselves. Because we get our salvation by believing in our capability of choosing Good (without God's help). And by putting this capability into action.

Freewill does not mean we are free of obligation to God. You cannot live completely without God because he is the sustainer of all life.
Acts 17:28 For by him we have life and move and exist,...'

The fact that you are alive and conscious and breathing is because God allows you to be. So you can never be completely autonomous...you are 'mortal' and your life depends on God.

Everything depends on God for its existence. And for that reason, it is not right to claim autonomy from him. You are obligated to him, but he is not obligated to you. Therefore, what you choose to do with your life determines whether you live or die.

Its your choice. Autonomy may seem like a good way to go, but that is what brings death to mankind. So judge for yourself whether it is good or bad...i know what i've chosen.

 

[Thief]

Not going along with some of this.....

Freewill IS the ability to say ...nay.
If you are going along with the program....you're not free.

Try cause and effect.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
because it will be done unto you as you have done unto others.

This will put YOU in charge of your destiny.

NOW you are free.

 

[Etritonakin]

Not going along with some of this.....

Freewill IS the ability to say ...nay.
If you are going along with the program....you're not free.

Try cause and effect.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
because it will be done unto you as you have done unto others.

This will put YOU in charge of your destiny.

NOW you are free.

-but that's the program, and you'd be going along with it. The point is that we eventually realize that saying nay to the program is without any benefit.

You have the ability to say nay -but eventually you must say yay -or things get all messed up -and you die -or if you ultimately and completely refuse -and would simply be an eternal trouble-maker, God can and will destroy you completely. His will supersedes ours -and he knows that divisions simply cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely -regardless of our views or will.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Isa 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

This may seem arrogant -but he is simply absolutely correct.

That aspect of freewill (saying nay to the program itself) cannot be allowed into eternity. Technically, the ability might remain (and will in other sorts of decisions), but it will not truly exist as an option. The will to say nay to the program should, can and will eventually be completely eradicated -because it is PERFECT.

 

[Estro Felino]

If you were once Catholic and have willfully and with full knowledge of your actions abandoned what you understand to be the truth in favor of your own ideas, then yes, you are a heretic. I'm not sure if that term applies to you.

First of all, dear friend, I wanna underline that I deeply respect your view. In fact I would never try and above all, I would never want to convince anybody.
My personal view is personal, indeed. That means it is the result of a slow inner process based on my experience and my feelings.
Being a heretic is what makes me feel comfortable with Christianity. otherwise I wouldn't be authentic.

You have it completely backwards. Jesus Himself says that we can do nothing without Him--see John 15:4-5:

It's a matter of interpretation. It depends on what one means by God. This sentence doesn't contradict my view. God is the Logos, or Truth, or Love or Wisdom. If we don't do good, if we don't choose altruism and love, we can never have a Heaven,after we die.

Luke 18:27 But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.”

precisely. If we choose to love (God), nothing is impossible.

If we depend on God, and rely on Him, and abide in Jesus, and walk with Jesus in the Holy Spirit under the guidance of God the Father, then we will be saved, because we need Him. But if we reject the Father, if we reject the Son, if we reject the Holy Spirit, then we cannot be saved, for we have rejected the way to salvation.

Again: I don't reject them. We Pelagians are God's friends and cooperators. We are not his servants. In other words: we prefer to boast about our merits, even if they are few, instead of boasting about Jesus's merits.

Satan would have us believe that we don't need God. We don't need the Source of Life. We don't need Him Who created the Heavens and the Earth. We don't need the Lord of Heaven. Satan wants to divide and conquer.

Satan wants us to believe that we cannot do what Jesus did. We can, actually. Of course not miracles, but we can bring justice and cooperation in this world made of hellish situations.
In fact, Jesus said: (I don't remember the exact passage):
You will perform miracles too...and even greater than mine. He meant that through love we can create a Heaven on Earth without God's' help

God chooses not to, but that doesn't mean that He lacks the ability to.

well...I believe that all the passages of the Bible in which God kills, are pure fantasy. With all due respect. From Noah to Sodomah, etc etc

Dear friend...I am sure that we want the same things, the same results. That's why I am a Catholic. Because I am sure that the Catholic Church and your Church want the same things as I want.

 

[Thief]

-but that's the program, and you'd be going along with it. The point is that we eventually realize that saying nay to the program is without any benefit.

You have the ability to say nay -but eventually you must say yay -or things get all messed up -and you die -or if you ultimately and completely refuse -and would simply be an eternal trouble-maker, God can and will destroy you completely. His will supersedes ours -and he knows that divisions simply cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely -regardless of our views or will.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Isa 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

This may seem arrogant -but he is simply absolutely correct.

That aspect of freewill (saying nay to the program itself) cannot be allowed into eternity. Technically, the ability might remain (and will in other sorts of decisions), but it will not truly exist as an option. The will to say nay to the program should, can and will eventually be completely eradicated -because it is PERFECT.

I don't believe in God because someone told me to.
I don't believe in God because someone thumped a book.

I have the stars above me.....and the earth beneath my feet.

That's not a program.

Note my banner and signature.

 

[Estro Felino]

Not going along with some of this.....

Freewill IS the ability to say ...nay.
If you are going along with the program....you're not free.

Try cause and effect.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
because it will be done unto you as you have done unto others.

This will put YOU in charge of your destiny.

NOW you are free.

What can I say, dear? I wish all the people were as smart as you
I wish all people understood what free will is...and above all that we all are endowed with it.
Bravo