Athiest...Evolution Question...

[painted wolf]

Everyone keeps asking me why I asked Athiests...it is becuase most Athiest believe in Evolution. That is all...nothing personal or anything.

It's because it implies that evolution is somehow against or trying to disprove God.... which is untrue.

I'm a theist and a biologist and I can assure you that evolution says nothing about the existence or non-existence of God. Nor does it have anything to do with the origin of the universe.

wa:do

 

[839311]

Actually, it's been shown that in a vacuum, matter pops into existence all the time.

No. Scientists concluding that matter 'pops' into existence all the time is a position based in ignorance. The matter definetly comes from somewhere and has a cause that is based on physics. When I hear statements like this it is exactly equivalent to the theistic idea that God created matter out of nothing, nothing more than magic. Perhaps the matter 'popped' into existence from one of the other dimensions we speculate about? Perhaps it has 'popped' into existence from another plane of existence of which we are unaware and cannot detect? To go from, 'Well, it appears that matter has popped into existence out of nothing', to 'matter has popped into existence out of nothing' is foolish.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

OK...here is a question I have had for a long time, but no athiest has ever given me a good answer. They all go on to explain how evolution works, but avoid this question. If it takes matter to make matter where did all the matter come from?

Evolution no more deals with where matter came from than Ohm's Law deals with where electrons come from.

Everyone keeps asking me why I asked Athiests...it is becuase most Athiest believe in Evolution. That is all...nothing personal or anything.

Most theists believe in evolution too, in my experience.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

No. Scientists concluding that matter 'pops' into existence all the time is a position based in ignorance. The matter definetly comes from somewhere and has a cause that is based on physics. When I hear statements like this it is exactly equivalent to the theistic idea that God created matter out of nothing, nothing more than magic. Perhaps the matter 'popped' into existence from one of the other dimensions we speculate about? Perhaps it has 'popped' into existence from another plane of existence of which we are unaware and cannot detect? To go from, 'Well, it appears that matter has popped into existence out of nothing', to 'matter has popped into existence out of nothing' is foolish.

I would direct your attention to the excellent lectures given by Dr. Lawrence Krauss.
Google "a Universe from nothing by Lawrence Krauss". You should see a couple of videos. Watch them.

 

[839311]

I would direct your attention to the excellent lectures given by Dr. Lawrence Krauss.
Google "a Universe from nothing by Lawrence Krauss". You should see a couple of videos. Watch them.

Ok, I just watched them.

Here is a quote from it. "We live in a universe dominated by nothing. The largest energy in the universe, 70% of the energy of the universe, resides in empty space. And we dont have the slightest idea why its there."

He also speaks about how there is a lot of mystery in the universe, which I certainly agree with.

I also liked how he got into infinity at the end of the presentation and the 'weird' implications of that.

So... why did you want me to see it as a response to my post?

 

[Matthew78]

OK...here is a question I have had for a long time, but no athiest has ever given me a good answer. They all go on to explain how evolution works, but avoid this question. If it takes matter to make matter where did all the matter come from? Something had to create the matter at one point in time. Can someone explain to me where evolution explains where matter first started (even before the big bang)? Again, even if it was a small dot it was still there...where did it come from?

Neophyte, I'd like to try to answer your question...

I understand that your dissatisfied with the answers you've gotten so far. You want to know where the matter came from that started everything. If stellar, planetary, and biological systems evolved, fine, you say- you just want to know where the matter making up stars, planets, and living organisms came from. Having been an atheist and having read atheist literature, I can tell you that most atheists believe that energy is eternal. There are two possibilities that atheists will bring up:

1.) We live in a universe. This universe is the only one we live in. If this is true, the universe is eternal, atheists will tell us. If it's true, the Big Bang is not the origin of all existence as we know it, it's just the origin of the universe in its current state. The universe changed from one form to another in the same way that ice can change into liquid water by being melted. The Big Bang was, in a sense, a "phase transition".

2.)We live in a multiverse. We live in one "universe" that happens to be one of many. Taken together, we live in a collection of "universes". In one "multiverse" scenario, one universe gives birth to another universe. For instance, Lee Smolin argues for this view in his book The Life of the Cosmos. Black holes give rise to baby "universes". A black hole in another universe gave birth to our universe. There are probably other "multiverse" hypotheses.

Anyways, in both hypotheses, energy is not created; it's eternal. Therefore, ultimately, there is no need to explain the ultimate origin of energy or matter given that it's eternal and doesn't need a cause to explain any such origin.

This may answer your question. People have said that evolution has nothing to do the origins of the universe or even life. But I have noticed that this applies to biological evolution. Defining evolution broadly as change, we have developed different theories of evolution that go beyond merely life. We have developed theories of stellar evolution, galatic evolution, and even cosmic evolution. If you read Alan Guth's "inflationary" theory, you'll notice that it's a theory of cosmic evolution. The problem is that unless you qualify which type of evolution you are talking about, you will be rebuked for thinking that the explanatory scope of biological evolution can be extended to the origin of life and the cosmos.

I hope this all helps. If not, feel free to ask me any questions you might have. I may not be an expert on atheism but I have read from books written by atheists and so I have some familiarity with what they believe and why.

 

[Neophyte]

Neophyte, I'd like to try to answer your question...

I understand that your dissatisfied with the answers you've gotten so far. You want to know where the matter came from that started everything. If stellar, planetary, and biological systems evolved, fine, you say- you just want to know where the matter making up stars, planets, and living organisms came from. Having been an atheist and having read atheist literature, I can tell you that most atheists believe that energy is eternal. There are two possibilities that atheists will bring up:

1.) We live in a universe. This universe is the only one we live in. If this is true, the universe is eternal, atheists will tell us. If it's true, the Big Bang is not the origin of all existence as we know it, it's just the origin of the universe in its current state. The universe changed from one form to another in the same way that ice can change into liquid water by being melted. The Big Bang was, in a sense, a "phase transition".

2.)We live in a multiverse. We live in one "universe" that happens to be one of many. Taken together, we live in a collection of "universes". In one "multiverse" scenario, one universe gives birth to another universe. For instance, Lee Smolin argues for this view in his book The Life of the Cosmos. Black holes give rise to baby "universes". A black hole in another universe gave birth to our universe. There are probably other "multiverse" hypotheses.

Anyways, in both hypotheses, energy is not created; it's eternal. Therefore, ultimately, there is no need to explain the ultimate origin of energy or matter given that it's eternal and doesn't need a cause to explain any such origin.

This may answer your question. People have said that evolution has nothing to do the origins of the universe or even life. But I have noticed that this applies to biological evolution. Defining evolution broadly as change, we have developed different theories of evolution that go beyond merely life. We have developed theories of stellar evolution, galatic evolution, and even cosmic evolution. If you read Alan Guth's "inflationary" theory, you'll notice that it's a theory of cosmic evolution. The problem is that unless you qualify which type of evolution you are talking about, you will be rebuked for thinking that the explanatory scope of biological evolution can be extended to the origin of life and the cosmos.

I hope this all helps. If not, feel free to ask me any questions you might have. I may not be an expert on atheism but I have read from books written by atheists and so I have some familiarity with what they believe and why.

Thank you for these two theories. I do have a question though. I understand why they would consider matter eternal, but I guess it seems that if evolution is true (which I personally don't believe, however would not argue anyone who does since no one really knows for sure including myself) then matter had to be created somehow. I think that if evolution is true God had to at least set in into motion and caculate how he was going to do it. There is so many factors and odd that say life could never been born but it was. That in itself is an awesome task. So I am trying to figure out if God did not do this how else could it be possible. Any thoughts? Thanks again for a well thought out answer.

 

[otokage007]

Thank you for these two theories. I do have a question though. I understand why they would consider matter eternal, but I guess it seems that if evolution is true (which I personally don't believe, however would not argue anyone who does since no one really knows for sure including myself) then matter had to be created somehow. I think that if evolution is true God had to at least set in into motion and caculate how he was going to do it. There is so many factors and odd that say life could never been born but it was. That in itself is an awesome task. So I am trying to figure out if God did not do this how else could it be possible. Any thoughts? Thanks again for a well thought out answer.

The creation of matter has nothing to do with Evolution. ToE explains the evolving of life, not the origin of universe, matter or energy. Not even the origin of life.

 

[Father Heathen]

To those that answered me repectively I appreciate it. To those who for some odd reason felt they must be rude I am confused why you even responded. There was no ill intent to my post. It is an honest question. I have never seen this issue addressed in any evolution book that I have read (yes, for school I have read them), or by any speaker. Everyone else (some highly intellegent) just try to start discussing breakdown of evolution in DNA and such. Anyway, I will have to take the advice from some and look under physics for this...

By the way, I know matter cannot be created or destroyed, yet it had to come from somewhere...

As it as already been explained, It's not in any evolution book because it has absolutely nothing to do biology.

 

[chinu]

OK...here is a question I have had for a long time, but no athiest has ever given me a good answer. They all go on to explain how evolution works, but avoid this question. If it takes matter to make matter where did all the matter come from? Something had to create the matter at one point in time. Can someone explain to me where evolution explains where matter first started (even before the big bang)? Again, even if it was a small dot it was still there...where did it come from?

came from time.

_/\_
Chinu

 

[crocusj]

Everyone keeps asking me why I asked Athiests...it is becuase most Athiest believe in Evolution. That is all...nothing personal or anything.

Not entirely sure that ToE is a belief system. Most atheists accept evolution because the evidence is overwhelming and there are no alternatives without dismissing this evidence. Of course, this same evidence is readily accepted by many (most?) outwith atheism also. Why do you find it so hard to accept? Not much of an "evolutionist" myself save for reading up on basic stuff because once you get into the small print it is much less entertaining than watching paint dry (no offence to Painted Wolf!) but I don't see the leap of faith required that you seem to imply.

 

[Matthew78]

Thank you for these two theories. I do have a question though. I understand why they would consider matter eternal, but I guess it seems that if evolution is true (which I personally don't believe, however would not argue anyone who does since no one really knows for sure including myself) then matter had to be created somehow.

I'm not sure why you think evolutionary theory lends itself to a belief that matter had to be created. Assuming it's biological evolution that you have in mind, the theory itself is "agnostic" on the question of where matter (and energy) came from. Only hypotheses and theories of cosmic evolution would be concerned with the question of where matter came from. Both hypotheses that I offered in my previous post address that question.

I think that if evolution is true God had to at least set in into motion and caculate how he was going to do it.

Well, if you're already a believer in some kind of divine being, sure, I can understand how you would think this. Do you believe that God is real, independently, of whether or not evolution is true?

There is so many factors and odd that say life could never been born but it was.

I'm not sure what you mean although I suspect that I know. This statement leads me to believe that you consider the statistical probability of life coming to existence to be very low. That's usually what I read from many creationists; the statistical probability of life coming into existance "by chance" is very low as to be unbelievable.

That in itself is an awesome task. So I am trying to figure out if God did not do this how else could it be possible. Any thoughts? Thanks again for a well thought out answer.

It might help to understand that the origin of life is not well understood. Chemists and other scientists investigating the problem have researched tantalizing possibilities. I have been reading into the subject and the most reasonable approach that I have read about seems to be the "RNA-world" hyothesis.