Atheists, if God existed, would it be reasonable to expect God to...

[Trailblazer]

Well, it's up to him to get his agents to tell us the objective test for omniscience that he satisfies.

Until then, we only have his agents' word for it. That's not enough to refute reasonable Rumsfeldian doubts ─ God thinks he knows everything because he doesn't know what he doesn't know. And it's his claim so it's up to him to demonstrate otherwise.

Of course if he is omniscient, he'll know what the test is and also know how to tell us what it is.

Since he hasn't done that, I'm inclined to imply that his silence on the point is an admission of his ignorance.

Humans do not test God, God tests humans.

 

[blü 2]

Humans do not test God, God tests humans.

If that's your view, then I respect it, old friend.

But from where I sit, EVERYTHING is up for testing.

 

[Trailblazer]

If that's your view, then I respect it, old friend.

But from where I sit, EVERYTHING is up for testing.

If you can track God down on your GPS tracker and test Him, go on ahead....
I'd love to see the results....

But I have heard that God is very elusive and He does not like being found.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, at least for now.

They have value for humans, not for God.

Arguable at best.

At the end of the day, they are just not convincing for many, many people - which is why they push so many people into our group despite hoping not to.

 

[HonestJoe]

The problem is that I have told him one hundred million times that is not what I believe.

Must every theological discussion be about what you believe? Maybe in discussing hypothetical gods neither of us believe exist, we can establish common concepts and principles to apply when discussing the much more emotive questions of what we do believe.

Moreover, nobody can ever know what God wants or expects unless it is written in scriptures.

Or even if it is written in scriptures, given that different religious scriptures say very different things and people interpret the same scriptures in very different ways. They don't seem to be any kind of special or unique source of knowledge.

I fully agree. And if we do not understand and then instead of admitting we do not understand we fill in the blanks we are speaking for God.

Wouldn’t that apply to writing scripture or claiming to be Gods messenger too?

I think there are things that God wants us to understand and those have been revealed through Messengers.

But the core problem being discussed here is that human messengers seems to be an imperfect method, given than nobody can every agree of what any of the messengers say and mean or even whether they’re really inspired by God or not. If there was something God wanted us to understand (individually or in groups), wouldn’t he use a method that meant we clearly, definitively and unconditionally knew that thing?

It is ludicrous to say “God wants” because God is immeasurably exalted above all created things.

Would it be considered churlish to quote you saying that? I can totally accept the idea that there is a god so far beyond us that we couldn’t possible understand it in any way. I can’t accept people proposing that kind of god but then going on to claim that they can receive any kind of instruction or guidance from that god, regardless of whether it is via scripture, messengers or anything else.

How could such a God want anything from humans, such as wanting the maximum number of people to believe He exists? God does not need anyone to believe that He exists because God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-subsisting above having needs. Needs are what humans have, God has no needs.

Such a god wouldn’t inspire messengers or scripture either. If God has no need of us, why would he interact with us at all?

 

[j1i]

Yes, God tries to help people with His teachings and laws and most people refuse them, which is why there is evil in the world. To blame God for this is completely illogical and unjust.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

The simplest example
Parental advice for rebellious teenagers
Don't hear the tips
They cause trouble
If they are hurt, they return to their parents crying and asking for help
As well as humans know God well during disasters and tribulations and in prisons
They become religious and idealists and he calls for good

 

[j1i]

ACTUALLY companies are run by a BOARD OF DIRECTORS, that is NUMEROUS individuals who get together and decide who THEY choose to be their spokesperson. In the exact same way that the president of a nation is chosen by a VOTE OF THE PEOPLE, who pick him or to to be the spokesperson the the nation. The board of directors and the voters are like MANY gods, who have the power to dismiss the CEO or the president.

Thus your analogy doesn't really hold up.

My problem with Google Translate
Always gives wrong or unclear translations
I must check the posts more before sending them

The wrong (general manager)
Correct (owner manager)

Who sacks Bill Gates or the Queen of Britain from her place
Who removes the Sun from its position that moves the planets with its magnetic force
(Council of Planetary Wise) ?
I mean the owner's manager

Thank you for clarifying the issue and this was my intention
I wait patiently answer my friend note that I will not talk more or chatter
I will only answer my convictions
Really enjoy learning and thank you

 

[j1i]

Sai Baba is very clear on this:
God wants to communicate directly to you. No need for a medium. And He says "I don't use a medium, and when I want to tell someone, I'm perfectly capable to tell the person, I do not need a medium". Those, claiming to be a medium, and claiming Sai is speaking through them to tell the other a message, suffer from mental delusions.

I love this teaching of Sai Baba. Especially the end, it's very true,

The words are very wise and is commensurate with the Islamic culture
The message of Islam is to worship God without a mediator
But we disagree with other cultures about who is real God
If we look at the principle of the incarnation of God, it means that the ages of the gods are short
But if we look at the age of the sun, are billions of years in no need of incarnation, they are designed to survive very enormous periods
what about who create it ?
I worship the greatest source of existence that we believe to be
He is the first with no beginning and no birth, and the last with no end and no inheritance

 

[QuestioningMind]

My problem with Google Translate
Always gives wrong or unclear translations
I must check the posts more before sending them

The wrong (general manager)
Correct (owner manager)

Who sacks Bill Gates or the Queen of Britain from her place
Who removes the Sun from its position that moves the planets with its magnetic force
(Council of Planetary Wise) ?
I mean the owner's manager

Thank you for clarifying the issue and this was my intention
I wait patiently answer my friend note that I will not talk more or chatter
I will only answer my convictions
Really enjoy learning and thank you

Who sacks Bill Gates or the Queen of Britain from her place
Who removes the Sun from its position that moves the planets with its magnetic force

When Gates was the CEO of Microsoft the Microsoft Board of Directors could have voted to remove him at any time. The parliament in England could vote to oust the queen at any time. An exploding super nova could conceivably remove the sun from its position at any time.

Your analogy simply does not work.

 

[j1i]

Who sacks Bill Gates or the Queen of Britain from her place
Who removes the Sun from its position that moves the planets with its magnetic force

When Gates was the CEO of Microsoft the Microsoft Board of Directors could have voted to remove him at any time. The parliament in England could vote to oust the queen at any time. An exploding super nova could conceivably remove the sun from its position at any time.

Your analogy simply does not work.

Notice how you are looking for the weakest points to answer
But you didn't go to the sun
Why didn't my friend face my situation to the example of the sun
I want you to understand the idea, not to hide my idea
It is impossible to accept more than a goddess
Your kindly board (council) is in constant conflict of differences and this will sometimes reflect reversible decisions
I mean as an example if there were multiple gods
The goddess decided that the earth orbited the sun in 365 days and the other gods said
We want to speed up the process of rotation and prolong human life
There are no signs of a sudden change in the cosmic nature of our lives
This reflects that the decision is always due to one source and there is no divine battle for choices

1 Advanced point for me
0 for u

 

[j1i]

Who sacks Bill Gates or the Queen of Britain from her place
Who removes the Sun from its position that moves the planets with its magnetic force

When Gates was the CEO of Microsoft the Microsoft Board of Directors could have voted to remove him at any time. The parliament in England could vote to oust the queen at any time. An exploding super nova could conceivably remove the sun from its position at any time.

Your analogy simply does not work.

Thank you very much for your kind participation
I really appreciate you this
Thank you again I hope to participate strongly as we complete each other and will not learn without friction in which the exchange of respect
We are to complement each other

 

[QuestioningMind]

Notice how you are looking for the weakest points to answer
But you didn't go to the sun
Why didn't my friend face my situation to the example of the sun
I want you to understand the idea, not to hide my idea
It is impossible to accept more than a goddess
Your kindly board (council) is in constant conflict of differences and this will sometimes reflect reversible decisions
I mean as an example if there were multiple gods
The goddess decided that the earth orbited the sun in 365 days and the other gods said
We want to speed up the process of rotation and prolong human life
There are no signs of a sudden change in the cosmic nature of our lives
This reflects that the decision is always due to one source and there is no divine battle for choices

1 Advanced point for me
0 for u

Why didn't my friend face my situation to the example of the sun

Do you have difficulty with reading comprehension? I VERY specifically addressed your sun example when I wrote: An exploding super nova could conceivably remove the sun from its position at any time.

How sad that you seem to think that your very poor analogy is somehow a 'point' for you.

 

[j1i]

Why didn't my friend face my situation to the example of the sun

Do you have difficulty with reading comprehension? I VERY specifically addressed your sun example when I wrote: An exploding super nova could conceivably remove the sun from its position at any time.

How sad that you seem to think that your very poor analogy is somehow a 'point' for you.

The sun came from the super nova
Beautiful, who caused the Big Bang?
It is God
God is nothing like Him
The God that we mean is the first replay who began to create everything and people deny His existence
I tried to give examples so that others could understand that there are no multiple gods
I congratulate you for having reached a level close to believing that there was a force that caused the big bang
So far, I have not answered the question of the Council of the Plurality of Gods in the face of conflicting cosmic decisions
This is not answered and there is no successful justification for the multiplicity of the gods


Imagination just measure by the level of your mind in case of multiple gods
Tomorrow will be fifty daylight hours and the day after tomorrow the sun will not come out
We may receive documents from the heavens asking us to leave the earth through the access to another planet in order to Maintenance the planet


There is no justification for the multiplicity of gods
But there are personalities that have been sanctified and to try to link the prestige of everyone
The story of the Incarnation was invented

 

[QuestioningMind]

The sun came from the super nova
Beautiful, who caused the Big Bang?
It is God
God is nothing like Him
The God that we mean is the first replay who began to create everything and people deny His existence
I tried to give examples so that others could understand that there are no multiple gods
I congratulate you for having reached a level close to believing that there was a force that caused the big bang
So far, I have not answered the question of the Council of the Plurality of Gods in the face of conflicting cosmic decisions
This is not answered and there is no successful justification for the multiplicity of the gods


Imagination just measure by the level of your mind in case of multiple gods
Tomorrow will be fifty daylight hours and the day after tomorrow the sun will not come out
We may receive documents from the heavens asking us to leave the earth through the access to another planet in order to Maintenance the planet


There is no justification for the multiplicity of gods
But there are personalities that have been sanctified and to try to link the prestige of everyone
The story of the Incarnation was invented

Beautiful, who caused the Big Bang? It is God

The proper question is WHAT caused the Big Bang? And the proper answer at this point in time is: We Do Not Know. For you to declare GOD DID IT! is nothing but childish, since you have absolutely ZERO evidence to back up your claim.

 

[j1i]

Beautiful, who caused the Big Bang? It is God

The proper question is WHAT caused the Big Bang? And the proper answer at this point in time is: We Do Not Know. For you to declare GOD DID IT! is nothing but childish, since you have absolutely ZERO evidence to back up your claim.

My words were easy and clear
The power that made the Big Bang is God
God is not the Big Bang

The Qur'an (god words) put to us the some images of the beginning of creation in different states
that the universe was smoke

fussilat verse. chapter 11: Then He turned to the sky, and it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth, "Come, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
12 So He completed them as seven universes in two days, and He assigned to each universe its laws. And We decorated the lower universe with lamps, and for protection. That is the design of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.
13 But if they turn away, say, "I have warned you of a thunderbolt, like the thunderbolt of
ʿĀd and Thamud


Including that it was one mass and exploded
prophets verse. chapter 30:
Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were one mass, and We tore them apart? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not believe?
31 And We placed on earth stabilizers, lest it sways with them, and We placed therein signposts and passages, that they may be guided.
32 And We made the sky a protected ceiling; yet they turn away from its wonders.
33 It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; each floating in an orbit.


finely
How can there be more than one judge ruling in court
I have not historically seen two judges at the same time ruling

Here I caught you
You are my friend and I will not accept to see you sad because you did not succeed until now
I want to make you happy but I don't know how

 

[QuestioningMind]

My words were easy and clear
The power that made the Big Bang is God
God is not the Big Bang

The Qur'an (god words) put to us the some images of the beginning of creation in different states
that the universe was smoke

fussilat verse. chapter 11: Then He turned to the sky, and it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth, "Come, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly."
12 So He completed them as seven universes in two days, and He assigned to each universe its laws. And We decorated the lower universe with lamps, and for protection. That is the design of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.
13 But if they turn away, say, "I have warned you of a thunderbolt, like the thunderbolt of
ʿĀd and Thamud


Including that it was one mass and exploded
prophets verse. chapter 30:
Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were one mass, and We tore them apart? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not believe?
31 And We placed on earth stabilizers, lest it sways with them, and We placed therein signposts and passages, that they may be guided.
32 And We made the sky a protected ceiling; yet they turn away from its wonders.
33 It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; each floating in an orbit.


finely
How can there be more than one judge ruling in court
I have not historically seen two judges at the same time ruling

Here I caught you
You are my friend and I will not accept to see you sad because you did not succeed until now
I want to make you happy but I don't know how

The power that made the Big Bang is God
God is not the Big Bang

And I never claimed that you said the Big Bang was God. Honestly, if you have such poor reading comprehension, further communication seems pretty useless. What I said was that it's childish of you to claim that God is the power that made the Big Bang when you have ZERO evidence for your silly claim. I have EXACTLY AS MUCH evidence that the Big Bang was accidentally caused by a magical pixie farting.

The Qur'an (god words) put to us the some images of the beginning of creation in different states
that the universe was smoke

There you go AGAIN... childishly making a blanket claim that your old book is the WORD OF GOD, without a SINGLE piece of evidence to back up your silly claim. I can claim that Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone is the WORD OF GOD... but without any evidence it's a moronic claim on my part.

How can there be more than one judge ruling in court
I have not historically seen two judges at the same time ruling

Then you are VERY ignorant, because there are plenty of courts with more than one judge. Ever hear of the Supreme Court of the United States? It has NINE judges on it!

Here I caught you

You certainly did catch me... pointing out that what you wrote is either wrong or makes absolutely no sense. Unless you can improve your reading comprehension, I doubt that further conversation is worthwhile.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Humans do not test God, God tests humans.

Humans test any claim they care about justifying. IMO, anyone who doesn't test God but believes in God anyway doesn't care about whether their beliefs are true.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The Messengers of God are Infallible, just as God is Infallible.

Except...
Messengers of God...as I understand things...are infallible when it comes to their delivery of the message of God, not in their everyday life. For example, Muslims will admit that Muhammed made some mistakes (let's say minor for the sake of this thread) but would say he's infallible in this delivery of the Word of God.
So, even if a Messengers delivery of the Word is perfect, the ability of another human to identify that this is a 'legitimate' Messenger of God would seem problematic (just keeping things to Muslims and Christians it seems clear that working out who is a prophet is problematic.
So you now have a perfect message, indicating God's intervention (since a 'normal' human can never be perfect) but have a God unwilling to convey the message themselves because...I'm not sure.

I mean, if the message has to be infallible, why rely on humans? The question remains.

Messengers of God, what Baha’is normally refer to as Manifestations of God, possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the others is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

Wait, are you claiming that Prophets are not human? Or at least that they are built differently? If so, wouldn't that mean that God guided that? I mean, it didn't just happen spontaneously, right?
So, again...it's confusing. God builds a messenger so that the message can be delivered perfectly, but by it's very nature, using a human as the conveyer of that message is flawed in terms of it's believability. How, now, do I determine if the next guy claiming to be a prophet IS actually a prophet?

Of course these are all beliefs and can never be proven, except to ourselves.

Yep, appreciate that, and also you taking the time to spell out your thoughts. It's an interesting conversation to me. Not looking to change your mind on anything, either, just trying to understand or maybe help you understand where the atheist you've been conversing with is at. Of course, his rationale could be different to mine, but to some degree I get where he's coming from, even if it's not quite how I think about it.

 

[j1i]

The power that made the Big Bang is God
God is not the Big Bang

And I never claimed that you said the Big Bang was God. Honestly, if you have such poor reading comprehension, further communication seems pretty useless. What I said was that it's childish of you to claim that God is the power that made the Big Bang when you have ZERO evidence for your silly claim. I have EXACTLY AS MUCH evidence that the Big Bang was accidentally caused by a magical pixie farting.

The Qur'an (god words) put to us the some images of the beginning of creation in different states
that the universe was smoke

There you go AGAIN... childishly making a blanket claim that your old book is the WORD OF GOD, without a SINGLE piece of evidence to back up your silly claim. I can claim that Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone is the WORD OF GOD... but without any evidence it's a moronic claim on my part.

How can there be more than one judge ruling in court
I have not historically seen two judges at the same time ruling

Then you are VERY ignorant, because there are plenty of courts with more than one judge. Ever hear of the Supreme Court of the United States? It has NINE judges on it!

Here I caught you

You certainly did catch me... pointing out that what you wrote is either wrong or makes absolutely no sense. Unless you can improve your reading comprehension, I doubt that further conversation is worthwhile.

There is no two judge reciting the sentence at the same time
The one who makes the judgment shall be one
There is only one man who is the judge who pronounces the sentence
My words are clear, frank and very easy
please no need to twist and rotate speaking
There are more than 200 heads of state in every country one head
We speak within the human system, which is a limited force requiring change of individuals because of the illness of one of them or the absence of one of them, but in the case of application be applied one


But in the sun range now as an example
It has no need in a traditional human system because it lives billions of years
How about the age of who great it or who made?

The Koran, which I wrote about God talk about 1400 years ago and is a beautiful reference and gives a reasonable and scientifically convergent conception with the Big Bang and the presence of smoke also cosmic
We cannot see smoke on heavens before 1400 in the earth
But with scientific development, we proved that the universe has dust and this dust is the result of smoke
There is no book before 1400 that speaks of smoke in heaven
Notice how you are defeated simultaneously and spontaneously
I came to you with a paragraph of enormous wisdom

Harry Potter story dedicated to children far from the conception of creation It is not mentioned that the heavens were smoke
You should be patient and speak logically
I am not as ignorant or a child as you claim
Koranic verses were put as a sign that there is talk of this thing and not to convince you
Be careful not to get angry, my friend, I am very tolerant and kind hearted

I will respond to you now to prove the inevitability of your failure
You claimed that the Big Bang was the result of magical pixie farting.
Well, I will follow you here, if you understand and are convinced of the correctness of your words
Who's the latest magical pixie farting.
Answer me clearly and without winding and rotation

I will chase you as the policeman pursues the fugitive

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree that this is a poor assumption. Even if a God exists, there is very little contemporary reason to believe, nor contemporary evidence to suggest, that it actually cares about human beings. Literally the only thing we have that informs us that "God cares" are some passages in The Bible, and what other believers believe or claim to have felt. In other words... just a bunch of words. There is nothing else to go on. Nothing. The world itself is fairly difficult for a human being to navigate, survival is tough and we've had to discover and implement our own ways of tempering the wild to suit our needs, thousands of people are harmed every single day without any intervention - I just don't see it.

I certainly cannot disagree with what you are saying; why should some words in a book be enough to know that God cares about human beings, especially given all the suffering we see in the world, and the inequity of the distribution of that suffering? I for the life of me cannot understand why Christians believe that God is All-Loving, as the empirical evidence does not point in that direction. The jury is out as far as I am concerned on the All-Loving God. I try to believe that but logic intervenes, and I am more logically-minded than I am religiously-minded.

All that said, I do *believe* that God has a message and that God wants us to get that message, not for God’s benefit, but for our benefit, because God has no needs. That is why I consider it an unfounded assumption that God is trying to achieve the result of the maximum number of people getting and believing His message, since God has no NEED to achieve anything. If we get the message we get the message and if we don’t it will be our own loss. God is completely out of the game as soon as He sends us a Messenger.

I agree that your friend cannot merely state that "imaginary gods use messengers." However, I do think he's onto something in his assessment. With all the "messengers" there have been, and all of the confusion that differing messages and religions has caused, one would think that anyone with even a modicum of intelligence and ability to do otherwise, would look at the logistics of using messengers to get their message across and find it incredibly inefficient and mostly botched by now - to the point that they wouldn't want to use it because it has been shown to be a really, really poor and unconvincing method of delivering "the message."

I agree that it is not easy for people who have to recognize and believe in the true Messenger of God, especially when He first appears, but I do not think that bring in all the false messengers as a *reason* why God would not use Messengers is at all relevant because anyone with a modicum of intelligence would be able to determine which messengers are true or false just by following the instructions and testing the Prophets: Proofs of Prophethood, Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 8-9

That is not to say it is easy to recognize a Messenger of God, especially when He is the new kid on the block:
Difficulties of Investigation, Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 9-10

All that said, I can agree with my atheist in the OP that God would not want to use this method IF God was trying to garner a lot of followers at the inception of the coming of anew Messenger, but we cannot assume that is the case. God is omniscient so God knows that not very many people will believe in His *new Messenger* for a long time after He appears and that is the pattern of history. Meanwhile, most people already believe in God and if we look at the total number of people in the world who believe in God, most of them believe because of one of the Messengers of God; although they might call Him a Prophet or a Holy Man, it is the same principle. So in that sense we can say that Messengers of God has been a successful method of communication to garner belief in God.

Your car analogy is, I feel, framed up incorrectly. You instead would be looking at the case where a person is looking for a method of travel, and has witnessed those around him attempting to use cars to do so. But in each of the cases he has witnessed the cars break down after a time, not going as far as anyone wants them to, and ultimately leaving people unable to make their entire trip. And THIS is the scenario within which this person needs to decide whether or not to utilize a car to make their own trip. AKA: To deliver their own message.

I like your car analogy but it is saying something different from what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that just because there are many junky cars (false messengers) that does not mean there can be no good cars (true Messengers of God). It is the fallacy of hasty generalization to assume there are no true Messengers just because most messengers are false. It is also the fallacy of jumping to conclusions to assume there are no true Messengers of God, unless we have searched and came up empty-handed.

I guess you are saying that God should deliver the message Himself, because all the religions of the world have not taken us to where we want to go, ultimately leaving atheists with no belief in God?

Your car analogy also works for something else I want to say. It is true that the religions of the world are not getting atheists where they would want to go, if they wanted to believe in a God, and the reason is because they are like the old cars that do not run very well anymore, since they are no longer suited to the modern age in which we live.

Why would a person drive an old car if someone gave them a brand new car for free, a car that has all the modern equipment? Well, the reason is because people get used to the old car (religion) and they do not want to relinquish it because they are afraid that the new car (religion) will not be as reliable. This can be easily understood with a basic knowledge of psychology. Also, if they are a Christian, they have been told not to even look in the new car lot, as there is only One Car that runs and gets them to heaven, Jesus.