Atheists, if God existed….

[Trailblazer]

I Hope i haven't offended you in any way

No, not in any way.
It is interesting that the people who are the least offensive think they might be offending.

You said some things I had never thought of before.
I feel the same way about atheists.
I want to respond to the rest of you post but it will take some time.
I will respond as soon as I have time.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, have you been here
An introduction.
A new member, joined today, a Baha'i and asking if there are other Baha'i on RF.

No, I would not have seen that if you had not pointed it out, so thanks for pointing it out.
I only have time to look at my own alerts and I rarely have time to look anywhere else.

I know this new Baha'i from two Baha'i forums I post on.
There is also another Baha'i here that rarely posts. Nobody knows it, but he is my husband.

 

[Bird123]

I agree, because that would take away free choice.

I do not think that messengers intimidate our choices since we have a choice to believe in them or not, and even if we do believe in them we still have free choices.

How could God show up for a visit?

I fully agree with that. This life is for learning what we will need to know in the next life. If we do not learn our lessons here we will be handicapped in the next life.

You might like this book, because it correlates with your views. It describes this world as kind of a workshop where we learn lessons and Discover God by looking at His Creation.
The Purpose of Physical Reality

your quote:I do not think that messengers intimidate our choices since we have a choice to believe in them or not, and even if we do believe in them we still have free choices.
My Answer: Granted, a messenger would not have the same intimidation force that God would, however it is still intimidation if they tell you how you should act or choose. Do those messengers serve up threats or consequences for not believing? Punishment?

Mankind is all about intimidation and coercion. God will have no part of that which includes anyone doing it in God's name. God isn't about threats or punishment.

Your quote:How could God show up for a visit?
My Answer: Never think God is out of reach or not connected. God is not going to show up physically. On the other hand, if God does choose to show up for a visit, hang onto your Hat. You will never understand all that will be said. Stretch to your limit and you will be surprised how much more you will realize. Of course, without a certain amount of understanding ahead of time, God is not going to show up for those good reasons I mentioned.

Your quote:I fully agree with that. This life is for learning what we will need to know in the next life. If we do not learn our lessons here we will be handicapped in the next life.
My Answer: Your thinking is corrupted by religion. There is no handicap. If a lesson is not learned, one repeats the lesson seeing and living another side of it until all sides are understood.

Your quote:You might like this book, because it correlates with your views. It describes this world as kind of a workshop where we learn lessons and Discover God by looking at His Creation.
My Answer: I'll put the book on my list. It will probably be a while. I keep a full plate. There are so many kiddies in the world that need help. There is also so much I can Discover through God. Still, I do a bit or reading from time to time.

 

[Trailblazer]

@ Bird123

My quote: I do not think that messengers intimidate our choices since we have a choice to believe in them or not, and even if we do believe in them we still have free choices.

Your Answer: Granted, a messenger would not have the same intimidation force that God would, however it is still intimidation if they tell you how you should act or choose.

If they are from God then they would presumably know what is in our best interest, so telling us what behaviors are worthy of the human station is beneficial to us. If they are not from God then there would be no reason to consider their advice over any other human being.

Do those messengers serve up threats or consequences for not believing? Punishment?

No, Baha’u’llah issued no such threats.

Mankind is all about intimidation and coercion. God will have no part of that which includes anyone doing it in God's name. God isn't about threats or punishment.

God only punishes those who warrant punishment. If God considered all men equal even when some are noble and others are heinous criminals God would be unjust.

My quote: How could God show up for a visit?

Your Answer: Never think God is out of reach or not connected. God is not going to show up physically. On the other hand, if God does choose to show up for a visit, hang onto your Hat. You will never understand all that will be said. Stretch to your limit and you will be surprised how much more you will realize. Of course, without a certain amount of understanding ahead of time, God is not going to show up for those good reasons I mentioned.

I do not think that God is going to show up on earth, in any way other than He has already shown up, manifesting Himself in a man who is both divine and human. If the Essence of God ever came to earth, Baha’u’llah explained what would happen:

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

My quote: I fully agree with that. This life is for learning what we will need to know in the next life. If we do not learn our lessons here we will be handicapped in the next life.

Your Answer: Your thinking is corrupted by religion. There is no handicap. If a lesson is not learned, one repeats the lesson seeing and living another side of it until all sides are understood.

Do you mean they are reincarnated and come back to earth to live again? I do not believe in reincarnation. This life is our one chance to learn what we need to learn. We can continue to learn and grow in the spiritual world but our starting point will be who we were in this life, and if we do not learn what we needed to learn here it will be difficult to progress in the spiritual world.

There is a reason why scriptures all say that we need to do certain things in this life and not wait till after we die. You can try to deny the truth of all the great religions but you are fighting a losing battle. In effect, you are trying to create your own religion.

My quote: You might like this book, because it correlates with your views. It describes this world as kind of a workshop where we learn lessons and Discover God by looking at His Creation.

Your Answer: I'll put the book on my list. It will probably be a while. I keep a full plate. There are so many kiddies in the world that need help. There is also so much I can Discover through God. Still, I do a bit or reading from time to time.

It is good to keep a full plate helping others. It shows that you care.
I do not do much reading either as I do not have the time.

 

[ChristineM]

Nobody knows it, but he is my husband

They do now ;-)

 

[Altfish]

Sorry, it’s just me again with my series of silly questions, courtesy of an atheist poster on my forum.

If God existed, COULD God communicate directly with everyone instead of using Messengers?

If God existed, WOULD God communicate directly with everyone instead of using Messengers?

If God existed, SHOULD God communicate directly with everyone instead of using Messengers?
​

By everyone, I mean every one of the 7.53 billion people in the world.

Please answer yes or no and give me the reasons for your answer.

Note: One of these is a trick question and I want to see if any of you figure it out.

Thanks, Trailblazer

If God existed, COULD God communicate directly with everyone instead of using Messengers?
YES

If God existed, WOULD God communicate directly with everyone instead of using Messengers?
I doubt it, too easy

If God existed, SHOULD God communicate directly with everyone instead of using Messengers?
YES

 

[Trailblazer]

They do now ;-)

But they do not know "which Baha'i" it is, although they could probably guess, given the infrequency of posts.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God existed, WOULD God communicate directly with everyone instead of using Messengers?
I doubt it, too easy

Yes, it would be too easy for humans.
Besides, God wants our faith, and direct communication would make that unnecessary.

If God existed, SHOULD God communicate directly with everyone instead of using Messengers?
YES

Because you like easy?

 

[ChristineM]

But they do not know "which Baha'i" it is, although they could probably guess, given the infrequency of posts.

Yeah, husband's are like that, anything but regular eh?

 

[Altfish]

Yes, it would be too easy for humans.
Besides, God wants our faith, and direct communication would make that unnecessary.

Because you like easy?

No. Not at all

You God obviously likes puzzles, likes to make it hard. It is the 21st Century, we have the internet, social media, wall to wall TV.
Does she not want to reach as wide an audience as possible?
Why limit the coverage to those with 'faith' who go looking for (and usually find) what others fail to see?

 

[Trailblazer]

No. Not at all

You God obviously likes puzzles, likes to make it hard. It is the 21st Century, we have the internet, social media, wall to wall TV.
Does she not want to reach as wide an audience as possible?
Why limit the coverage to those with 'faith' who go looking for (and usually find) what others fail to see?

Sheesh, the Baha’i Faith is not limited to a narrow audience and it is not hard to find, if you know what you are looking for and where to look. How much wider can you get than the internet?

The Bahá’í Faith - The website of the worldwide Bahá’í community

Baha’i Reference Library online

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, husband's are like that, anything but regular eh?

He is regular about some things, like taking care of the 10 cats, so he gets off the hook for what he doesn’t do.

I’ll leave you to guess which Baha’i he is.

Hint: He has a different view of God than me and he talks about things I am not that interested in, as it relates to religion.

 

[ChristineM]

He is regular about some things, like taking care of the 10 cats, so he gets off the hook for what he doesn’t do.

I’ll leave you to guess which Baha’i he is.

Hint: He has a different view of God than me and he talks about things I am not that interested in, as it relates to religion.

If he takes care of the cats he can't be all bad ;-)

 

[Trailblazer]

If he takes care of the cats he can't be all bad ;-)

True.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree that God will communicate to everyone who is willing to hear, but I do not think it is in an audible voice.

I agree. Voice is one of the worst communication method we have
Voice, is not a real thing. it is how our brain interprets vibrations of air.

So how do you think that God would communicate to people such that they would know it was God?

However, I do not think that God ever forces Himself upon anyone because that would be a violation of free will.

I partly agree.
I don't think one can "not experience" God.
Whatever it is you think you choose to do, relates to God (including being an atheist)

I agree, but if one is not aware that it is God then they can interpret what they are experiencing in various and sundry ways.

If people shut God out or if they shut out the possibility that God exists, then they will not ever know that God exists.

Not necessarily.
I didn't believe God existed for a long time. I didn't really "needed" it in my life.
That was so until i realized it is in my life whether i understand it or not.
Once this understanding came to be (literally), everything changed.
My entire understanding of my life, my experiences and in fact now it seems very strange to me how i "missed" God.
But the fact i shut it out, didn't mean i didn't know it exist. i simply didn't know it was God

But you had to become aware that it was a God you were experiencing before you could believe that God existed.

I had a similar experience although it was a little different. I have known that God exists since I became a Baha’i about 49 years ago, but I was not in tune with God until the last few years. I called it “shutting God out” because that is essentially what I had done. It was as if I had turned off the God channel and turned on another channel because I was too busily engaged in other activities to watch the God channel. But the fact of the matter is that I had never turned on the God channel in the first place, because I was not interested in God; I joined my religion because I believed in the social and spiritual teachings.

Then at a certain point in my life, which was kind of a turning point, I realized that I needed to make a change because nothing in my life was working. I had certain longstanding emotional problems that could not be resolved with any kind of mental health professionals or drugs, so I decided that maybe I should check out some other solutions. To be clear, I do not think any of this was a conscious activity on my part; it was as if I was being guided in a certain direction and I landed on the Planet Baha’i forum. That was about seven years ago. After that I branched off to several other forums and about five years ago I started my own forum.

I think that some atheists have decided that God does not exist

I wouldn't phrase it like that. This is a misleading thing to claim about atheists.
Atheist don't decide God doesn't exist. they will simply be (usually) people who require a more vivid and physical evidence of things.

Yes, those are much more accurate statements than what I said. Maybe some hard atheists have decided that God does not exist, but most atheists say they would believe God exists if they had the kind of evidence they require. The problem is that God does not provide any such evidence.

I was there. I still am skeptical in my way of thought.
Atheists simply haven't found (yet) a good enough reason to believe God exist.

And Imo most of them probably never will; I think you are the exception.

It is very easy to relate as so many horrific things throughout history were done (and still are) in the name of God (by people who have very little understanding of what God is not).

Yes, I agree. If there was any reason for me to not believe in God it would be all the suffering in the world, past and present.

What do you mean by “what God is not”?

unless God does certain things they expect Him to do, provide a certain kind of evidence.

Also (mostly) not true.
Atheist have no expectation from God as they don't really think there is one.

That is true of almost all atheists but there are exceptions. There is an atheist on my forum who I have been posting to for over five years who does have expectations of what God would do if God existed. He thinks God would communicate directly to everyone instead of using Messengers to communicate.

that is setting parameters for God and it will never succeed.

I can't claim to know that.
As far as i know, it might be that some day God will be understood without a doubt by anyone.

What I meant is that setting parameters for God will never succeed because no human can encompass or control an omnipotent God.

I believe that in the future everyone will believe in God; they won’t just believe, they will know God exists.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

I have the same problem with shutting God out, so I understand how some atheists might feel.

That's good. It is also important that you understand why they feel what they feel.
It has got nothing to do with shutting God out.

Well, since all people are different, all atheists think and feel differently, so I just listen and try to understand.

But I have the advantage that I definitely believe (know) that God exists,

Great. I share the same knowledge, but i can't say it gives me any advantage over anyone.
I Know many people who do not believe in God that lead life i could only wish for (not material, rather "spiritual").
So many good people can teach so many "believers" the true meaning of God without even knowing they are doing it.
In fact, many of my understanding and discoveries about God came from people who lack the belief in it!
ALL those who believe in God should learn how to be an atheist! so many monstrosities will be spared from our world!

I agree with what you said about atheists. I only meant that it is easy for me because I have no doubt that God exists, I know.

I at times envy people who "have no God" in their lives. things are much easier that way .

I feel the same way because belief in God carries a huge responsibility (for me). In many ways my life was easier before I turned the God channel on seven years ago, because I believed in God but had God on the back burner. Now that God is on the front burner I don’t have time to cook anything else.

and I know some things about how God operates

That is a very strong statement .

What I meant is that I know some things about the Will of God. Nobody knows how God operates except God.

so I know that I have nobody to blame but myself if I am distant from God.

I hope. you had great life so far if that was the case.

No, my whole life has been an uphill battle and it still is, but now that I have God on board it is easier to get up the hill.

I try not to blame myself though because I have certain handicaps and I believe God knows what they are.

We all do.
Some have physical ones, some emotional ones and some mental ones.
Our handicaps are whats builds us and makes us much stronger.

That is true, we all have our weaknesses and struggles but it is a matter of degree and it is a matter of how debilitating they are and how much it limits our lives. Having tests and difficulties, as Baha’is refer to them, is good for spiritual growth, but when they are constant it makes it near impossible to make oneself very useful in life.

 

[Segev Moran]

So how do you think that God would communicate to people such that they would know it was God?

Thanks for taking the time to answer I find chatting with you very interesting and educating
As for the communication question, It will communicate the same way it communicates with us today.
I think one of "problems" with knowing God is that it is the other way around. Only when you know there is a God, you understand the language it uses to communicate, you can't know God because it communicates with you (obviously, or else everyone will know God as a fact).
Even in the story about mount Sinai. the people literally heard God's words, yet they didn't all understood it.
They saw miracles, they heard rumbles and sounds, they were escorted by God for many days and still they were not convinced it was God.
There is a story behind the story. this is our nature. we are not meant to easily know God. we need to change our perception (what you call "God channel" )
There is no physical switch.
It is a matter of how your brain is wired.

The phrase "I was blind" is not a literal blindness.. it is a mental blindness to the reality of our existence.

In Hebrew, the Word "Olam" (World) is derived from the word "NeElam" (hidden). Our world is sort of a riddle for us to solve. once you find the key, everything becomes less and less hidden and only then you understand God's communication.

The day everyone will know God, is not because it will suddenly reveal it self and convince everyone. It will be simply that everyone will have that "God channel" turned on

I agree, but if one is not aware that it is God then they can interpret what they are experiencing in various and sundry ways.

Indeed they do
Yet it is still God. If i say life are a chemical thing only, that's okey. If you appreciate life because they are rare and wondrous, does it matter if i know it was God that made them?
At some point, it will be clear to all that life didn't emerge out of the blue. so one say it was the universe, one says it was God. As long as you understand life is precious, it doesn't matter what interpretation you give its origin.

But you had to become aware that it was a God you were experiencing before you could believe that God existed.

I Don'y believe God exist.
I Know it. for a fact.
I wasn't aware God is part of my existence until i knew there is a God not the other way around.
Once i knew it, i realized how "blind" i was to the fact that it is part of me and my reality.

I had a similar experience although it was a little different. I have known that God exists since I became a Baha’i about 49 years ago, but I was not in tune with God until the last few years.
I called it “shutting God out” because that is essentially what I had done.

So how did you know it existed?
Now that i Know God, i cannot even if i tried, shut it out of my life.
It will be the same as me deciding I shut out physics out of my life. I can't!

It was as if I had turned off the God channel and turned on another channel because I was too busily engaged in other activities to watch the God channel.

If you know there is a God, how can you do anything without having God in mind?

But the fact of the matter is that I had never turned on the God channel in the first place, because I was not interested in God; I joined my religion because I believed in the social and spiritual teachings.

It will be like not being interested in breathing

Then at a certain point in my life, which was kind of a turning point, I realized that I needed to make a change because nothing in my life was working.

To me it was very different. I really loved my life (Still do even more than before), But God simply "came" i wasn't really looking to understand it, but when i took the first step (not intentionally) everything simply exploded. it was like a second of understanding i was missing so much.

I had certain longstanding emotional problems that could not be resolved with any kind of mental health professionals or drugs, so I decided that maybe I should check out some other solutions. To be clear, I do not think any of this was a conscious activity on my part; it was as if I was being guided in a certain direction and I landed on the Planet Baha’i forum. That was about seven years ago. After that I branched off to several other forums and about five years ago I started my own forum.

Great
I am glad you found your path

Maybe some hard atheists have decided that God does not exist

It is weird to claim as there is no evidence that something doesn't exist

The problem is that God does not provide any such evidence.

it does, Atheists simply don't accept it

And Imo most of them probably never will; I think you are the exception.

I am far from it. I know many people that discovered God.

What do you mean by “what God is not”?

I mean that some people think God to be something that it is not.
For example an old man in the clouds
Or an entity that will punish you for your crimes.
Or an envious creature that watch you while having sex
These are all thoughts of people who think God is something it is not.

There is no God creature. it is not a physical entity.
If it was, everyone would have known it exist

That is true of almost all atheists but there are exceptions. There is an atheist on my forum who I have been posting to for over five years who does have expectations of what God would do if God existed. He thinks God would communicate directly to everyone instead of using Messengers to communicate.

God doesn't use messengers
Messengers use God

What I meant is that setting parameters for God will never succeed because no human can encompass or control an omnipotent God.

It will be like saying a human can control the universe

I believe that in the future everyone will believe in God; they won’t just believe, they will know God exists.

Me too

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

I hope it will be like so.
These verses depict an awakening of knowledge.
It is not a spiritual knowledge, rather a genuine knowledge.
It is predicted that science will provide the proof for God.
It will be a very interesting era to live in

Well, since all people are different, all atheists think and feel differently, so I just listen and try to understand.

That the best thing one can do

I feel the same way because belief in God carries a huge responsibility (for me). In many ways my life was easier before I turned the God channel on seven years ago, because I believed in God but had God on the back burner. Now that God is on the front burner I don’t have time to cook anything else.

For me it is different. I have time for everything, it is just that now, i understand the effect my doings and yes, even thoughts, have on others.
Other humans, other living being, and the universe itself.

What I meant is that I know some things about the Will of God. Nobody knows how God operates except God.

I Agree
I can today see God's impact

No, my whole life has been an uphill battle and it still is, but now that I have God on board it is easier to get up the hill.

I'm glad to hear it is easier. I hope it will get easier and easier.
Although it is interesting to know that based on the Jewish beliefs, one without problems should really take a good look on his life, it probably means he is doing something wrong

That is true, we all have our weaknesses and struggles but it is a matter of degree and it is a matter of how debilitating they are and how much it limits our lives.

I really believe that the phrasing "God hands you only what you can handle" is genuine.

Having tests and difficulties, as Baha’is refer to them, is good for spiritual growth, but when they are constant it makes it near impossible to make oneself very useful in life.

I really hope you'll find the strength to overcome all your difficulties

 

[Trailblazer]

you can't know God because it communicates with you (obviously, or else everyone will know God as a fact).

But that is what some atheists expect God to do, provide proof of His existence and make Himself known as a fact.

Even in the story about mount Sinai. the people literally heard God's words, yet they didn't all understood it.
They saw miracles, they heard rumbles and sounds, they were escorted by God for many days and still they were not convinced it was God.
There is a story behind the story. this is our nature. we are not meant to easily know God. we need to change our perception (what you call "God channel" )
There is no physical switch.
It is a matter of how your brain is wired.

Hmmmm... I did not know that about Mount Sinai... It is so obvious to me that God exists but we are all different, so I do not expect it to be easy for everyone. I would never judge anyone for not believing.

The day everyone will know God, is not because it will suddenly reveal it self and convince everyone. It will be simply that everyone will have that "God channel" turned on

Yes, that is what I believe will happen in the future.

I Don'y believe God exist.
I Know it. for a fact.

Same here, but some atheists get all over me for saying that.

I wasn't aware God is part of my existence until iknew there is a God not the other way around.
Once i knew it, i realized how "blind" i was to the fact that it is part of me and my reality.

Me too.

So how did you know it existed?
Now that i Know God, i cannot even if i tried, shut it out of my life.
It will be the same as me deciding I shut out physics out of my life. I can't!

I *believed* that God existed because of my religion, but I did not *know* that God exists the way I do now.

If you know there is a God, how can you do anything without having God in mind?

I can’t, NOT anymore.

The problem is that God does not provide any such evidence.

it does, Atheists simply don't accept it

That’s true.

And Imo most of them probably never will; I think you are the exception.

I am far from it. I know many people that discovered God.

Do you mean you were an atheist who discovered God? Were you Jewish then too?

Although it is interesting to know that based on the Jewish beliefs, one without problems should really take a good look on his life, it probably means he is doing something wrong

Everyone has some problems, it is just a matter of degree. I think there are a lot of people who have a lot fewer problems than I do, but it comes with the lifestyle I live, and I chose it so I do not blame anyone for it. I just deal with it as it comes at me.

I could try to change my lifestyle but I think it is what God wants me to be doing so I just deal, and I get a lot of help because God seems to be leading me where I need to go and so I have faith it will all be okay, whatever happens.

I really hope you'll find the strength to overcome all your difficulties

Thanks, I won’t overcome them but I will deal with them. I have never been one for the easy way.