• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Atheists: If God existed…

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sorry, but certainty is *not* knowledge. You can be certain about something and still be wrong.
It is knowledge according to both definitions below:

knowledge
;
1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.
2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=knowledge+means

It does not mean I cannot be wrong just because I am certain.
Please note that even if I had facts and information, those facts and information could be wrong.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
My religion does not teach me to hate, quite the opposite.

Whatever God does is warranted because God is the Ruler of the Universe. God is not answerable to anyone. God is wrathful when human behavior warrants His wrath.

Unconditional love is not always warranted. Should I love the evil tenant who us trying to sue me? I think not.
I do not have to hate just because I do not love. I do not seek revenge but I seek justice.

Holy books are revealed by God to Manifestations of God and they reflect God's Will for humanity.


Your quote:Whatever God does is warranted because God is the Ruler of the Universe. God is not answerable to anyone. God is wrathful when human behavior warrants His wrath.
My answer:When you say cause God says so, you avoid discovering the Real Truth in favor of not questioning. Do you think God does not want to be questioned? Are you afraid of the answers? God hides nothing. The reasons for God's actions are clear and stare us all in the face.

Answer this: When does mankind's behavior warrant wrath?

Your quote:Holy books are revealed by God to Manifestations of God and they reflect God's Will for humanity.
My answer: Holy books are written by mankind and clearly reflect mankind along with so many of the petty things mankind holds so dear. I have found no holy book that really Understands God. I have found no holy book that understands what God is doing with this world. Holy books teach hate when they deem some are better than others.

God has never needed holy books. God places all the information around us. It's waiting for those who seek Truth to Discover it. As I see it, clearly you choose blind faith in the beliefs of men rather than the Truth that stares you in the face.

Discovery takes work, however the results are better.

How can you reach a Higher Level when you think less of others? You might not think this is hate, however it keeps you from loving unconditionally.

Unconditional Love is warranted with your tenant. Teach them a better way. First, you must acquire knowledge in order to show them the path they are choosing is not the best way.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
What I think would be rather silly if you claimed to know what nobody can ever know -- why this god exists, how does this god exist, where does it come from the reason for and purpose of and meaning of it's existence.

God is a Mystery no human mind can fathom. All we can know are some Attributes of God and the Will of God for us in every age.

You cannot know why God exists, how does God exist, where does God come from or the reason for and purpose of and meaning of God's existence, but you can know the purpose and meaning of YOUR existence, what God created you for.
And why would I believe a god exists if you can't tell me why or how or where it comes from or for which reason it exists or for which purpose or the meaning of it's existence? You have to give me a logical and rational explanation for why and how etc a god would exist in the first place! Otherwise I have no reason to believe it exists!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And why would I believe a god exists if you can't tell me why or how or where it comes from or for which reason it exists or for which purpose or the meaning of it's existence? You have to give me a logical and rational explanation for why and how etc a god would exist in the first place! Otherwise I have no reason to believe it exists!
I cannot tell you why or how or where God comes from or for which reason God exists or for which purpose or the meaning of God's existence, because nobody knows the answer to these questions. All I can say is that God has always existed and His Creation has always existed and that without God we would not continue to exist, since God is what keeps Creation going. So I guess one purpose of God's existence is to keep Creation going.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
IF you actually believed that Baha'u'llah was the Manifestation of God for this age, everything He revealed would change your entire perspective on life and death. You would never be the same again.
How would I not be the same again? How would I change? From what into what did you change?
The question is whether you would want the responsibilities that go with that knowledge.
Which responsibilities?
Some of the rewards will not be realized until the next life, but that is just the way God set it up.... “They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe,” Gleanings, p. 171
Rewards? Is that why you believe?
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I cannot tell you why or how or where God comes from or for which reason God exists or for which purpose or the meaning of God's existence, because nobody knows the answer to these questions. All I can say is that God has always existed and His Creation has always existed and that without God we would not continue to exist, since God is what keeps Creation going. So I guess one purpose of God's existence is to keep Creation going.
I appreciate your effort. Can you support your statements that God has always existed and that Creation has always existed and that without God we would not continue to exist with evidence and facts?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How would I not be the same again? How would I change?
You would not be the same because your whole purpose in life would change, if you really believed what Baha'u'llah wrote.
From what into what did you change?
I changed from a selfish person who cared about the material world to a person who cares more about other people, my own spiritual growth and getting close to God.
Which responsibilities?
Adhering to Baha’i Laws, being part of the Baha’i community, teaching the Cause, stuff like that.
Rewards? Is that why you believe?
No, that is not what I meant. I meant that the joy and gladness and the reason for which you put forth all your efforts might not be realized until the afterlife.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I appreciate your effort. Can you support your statements that God has always existed and that Creation has always existed and that without God we would not continue to exist with evidence and facts?
Not with evidence and facts, only with scripture.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
You would not be the same because your whole purpose in life would change, if you really believed what Baha'u'llah wrote.
My purpose in life now is to create order out of chaos. To always do what is beneficial to the well-being and survival of my society and the people in it. I don't want that purpose to change.
I changed from a selfish person who cared about the material world to a person who cares more about other people, my own spiritual growth and getting close to God.
I already care about the well-being and survival of my community and other people because their well-being and mine is interconnected and this is how my brain is wired. I don't care about "my own spiritual growth" because I have no idea what that is supposed to mean even.
No, that is not what I meant. I meant that the joy and gladness and the reason for which you put forth all your efforts might not be realized until the afterlife.
The reason I put forth all my efforts is that it is my personality and how I am, and I feel great joy and gladness whenever I manage to fix things or improve the well-being of my society and people in it. It has nothing to do with other rewards before or after death.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Unconditional love is not always warranted.

Agreed. Why would anybody offer unconditional love to anything more sophisticated than an infant or toddler? Of course there are conditions to love, and violating them can result in indifference if not hatred.

Good luck rounding up all those nonbelievers and making them live by the Golden Rule and The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Should we continue to rely on the religions that claim to make their adherents better people for the last few millennia to do that? I think it's time to look for something better.

Whatever God or Gods there might be, clearly the interest is in testing the faith in lesser subjects.

Intelligent agents wouldn't be interested in faith, or be drawn to entities that belief with insufficient evidence. The more one learns and understands, the more he rejects such thinking.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
My purpose in life now is to create order out of chaos. To always do what is beneficial to the well-being and survival of my society and the people in it. I don't want that purpose to change.
Since that is what Baha’is endeavor to do, your purpose would not change, but you would have an additional purpose, to know and love God.
I already care about the well-being and survival of my community and other people because their well-being and mine is interconnected and this is how my brain is wired. I don't care about "my own spiritual growth" because I have no idea what that is supposed to mean even.
Interconnectedness of all created things, not just humans but especially humans, is the primary teaching of the Baha’i Faith.

The basic message of Baha’u’llah was the Unity of Mankind, meaning that we are all part of one whole and that we all proceed from the same Source, One God.

“The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

Unity does not mean we are all the same or that we all agree about everything because there is BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY.

Spiritual growth simply means to work towards acquiring the divine perfections; the attributes of our spiritual nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, high aspirations, philanthropy, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, which is the essence of life.
The reason I put forth all my efforts is that it is my personality and how I am, and I feel great joy and gladness whenever I manage to fix things or improve the well-being of my society and people in it. It has nothing to do with other rewards before or after death.
Your personality is in alignment with the basic Baha’i teachings, which enjoin us to work to improve the well-being of society and people in it. We are not supposed to do what we do for a reward in heaven although that is part of the natural outcome, if we live the life of a Baha’i, which is demonstrated in our faith and conduct.

Chapter 5: What is a Bahá’í
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Can those scriptures be backed up with evidence and facts? And I mean independent and objective and verifiable evidence and facts not something written by biased individuals?
"That God has always existed and that Creation has always existed and that without God we would not continue to exist" cannot be backed up with independent and objective and verifiable evidence and facts, because it is a religious belief, and as such it cannot be proven.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Agreed. Why would anybody offer unconditional love to anything more sophisticated than an infant or toddler? Of course there are conditions to love, and violating them can result in indifference if not hatred.
And we do not offer unconditional love to someone who has a selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Am I supposed to show unconditional love towards a lying ex-tenant who is trying to sue me and extort large sums of money from my insurance company? What would that accomplish? Is that supposed to change his ways? That is foolishness, as it would only make him lie all the more.

The more you allow people to take advantage of you, if that is their motive, the more they continue to do so. I have had it with tenants who do that. I have two right now who are behind on the rent, one who is very far behind. If I keep allowing that they will think it is just fine by me, but it is not fine, so they will be getting an e-mail in short order.

“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—except for those who have some selfish, private motive, or some disease of the soul. Kindness cannot be shown the tyrant, the deceiver, or the thief, because, far from awakening them to the error of their ways, it maketh them to continue in their perversity as before. No matter how much kindliness ye may expend upon the liar, he will but lie the more, for he believeth you to be deceived, while ye understand him but too well, and only remain silent out of your extreme compassion.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158
Should we continue to rely on the religions that claim to make their adherents better people for the last few millennia to do that? I think it's time to look for something better.
I think it is time for people of the older religions to join the Baha'i Faith and work towards the betterment of mankind, but of course I have a certain bias.
Intelligent agents wouldn't be interested in faith, or be drawn to entities that belief with insufficient evidence. The more one learns and understands, the more he rejects such thinking.
Nobody knows what God would do, but we can know what He has done and what He expects, if we read what Baha'u'llah wrote. God is interested in faith, not blind faith, but evidence-supported faith.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Your quote: Whatever God does is warranted because God is the Ruler of the Universe. God is not answerable to anyone. God is wrathful when human behavior warrants His wrath.

My answer: When you say cause God says so, you avoid discovering the Real Truth in favor of not questioning. Do you think God does not want to be questioned? Are you afraid of the answers? God hides nothing. The reasons for God's actions are clear and stare us all in the face.
How do you think you can know what the Real Truth is? No, I do not think God wants to be questioned because God is All-Knowing and All-Wise; so why would be question God? That would be highly illogical.

God only reveals His Will through Messengers, otherwise God is hiding. The reasons for God’s actions are only revealed through Messengers of God, anything else we come up with is the product of human imagination.
Answer this: When does mankind's behavior warrant wrath?
Mankind’s behavior warrants God’s wrath whenever God determines it warrants His wrath. God is the Knower of all things.
Your quote: Holy books are revealed by God to Manifestations of God and they reflect God's Will for humanity.

My answer: Holy books are written by mankind and clearly reflect mankind along with so many of the petty things mankind holds so dear. I have found no holy book that really Understands God. I have found no holy book that understands what God is doing with this world. Holy books teach hate when they deem some are better than others.
Holy books were revealed by Manifestations of God (what I often refer to as Messengers or Prophets). Some of the Holy books were written by men, but these men were guided by the Holy Spirit. There is nothing “petty” in the Torah, the Bible, the Qur’an, or the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

Do you think you Understand God and what God is doing with this world better than a Manifestation of God that was sent by God? Holy books do not teach hate, they teach love and justice. Unconditional love is not always warranted because it is not in the best interest of the recipient or the giver.

Clearly all men, be they good or evil, pious or infidel, are not equal in the sight of God. That does not mean God does not love everyone, but that is a separate topic. All people are not the same; they differentiate themselves by their behavior, which is determined by the free will choices that they make.
God has never needed holy books. God places all the information around us. It's waiting for those who seek Truth to Discover it. As I see it, clearly you choose blind faith in the beliefs of men rather than the Truth that stares you in the face.

Discovery takes work, however the results are better.
God has always used Holy books because that is the only way humans can ever know the Truth about God and their Purpose in Life. Anything else is just the product of the human ego.

Anyone can "believe" they have Discovered the Truth and be wrong, and when different people say they have Discovered the Truth, and those Truths are contradictory, how do you determine which one of them really has the Real Truth? Your method of Discovering Truth is thus completely illogical.
How can you reach a Higher Level when you think less of others? You might not think this is hate, however it keeps you from loving unconditionally.
We are not supposed to judge other people. That is the teachings of all religions, judge not lest ye be judged. Only God can judge.

Everything that is not love is not hate. One can simply recognize bad behavior for what it is.
Unconditional Love is warranted with your tenant. Teach them a better way. First, you must acquire knowledge in order to show them the path they are choosing is not the best way.
You must think you have a lot of knowledge and power, to be able to turn evil into good. I do not think I have that kind of power. People only change themselves if they choose to change. I am not going to teach him anything because he has no interest in learning.

Should I go to his attorney’s office and say I want to teach him unconditional love? How is that going to change him? He is a truly evil person, lying in order to try to extort large sums of money from my insurance company. He has no evidence of his accusations, but because of how the justice system works, he will get money, when he does not deserve one red cent. Lying is the foundation of all evil. I hope God punishes him after he dies, if not before, because that is the only way justice can be served.[/QUOTE]
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Intelligent agents wouldn't be interested in faith, or be drawn to entities that belief with insufficient evidence. The more one learns and understands, the more he rejects such thinking.
I mean historically it seems like that if there's one thing in common in regard to all human religions, it seems like faith has a place in all of them. They all most likely demand it on some level, and unless a higher agent appears that doesn't demand it, I think make a correct inference.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
How do you think you can know what the Real Truth is? No, I do not think God wants to be questioned because God is All-Knowing and All-Wise; so why would be question God? That would be highly illogical.

God only reveals His Will through Messengers, otherwise God is hiding. The reasons for God’s actions are only revealed through Messengers of God, anything else we come up with is the product of human imagination.

Mankind’s behavior warrants God’s wrath whenever God determines it warrants His wrath. God is the Knower of all things.

Holy books were revealed by Manifestations of God (what I often refer to as Messengers or Prophets). Some of the Holy books were written by men, but these men were guided by the Holy Spirit. There is nothing “petty” in the Torah, the Bible, the Qur’an, or the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

Do you think you Understand God and what God is doing with this world better than a Manifestation of God that was sent by God? Holy books do not teach hate, they teach love and justice. Unconditional love is not always warranted because it is not in the best interest of the recipient or the giver.

Clearly all men, be they good or evil, pious or infidel, are not equal in the sight of God. That does not mean God does not love everyone, but that is a separate topic. All people are not the same; they differentiate themselves by their behavior, which is determined by the free will choices that they make.

God has always used Holy books because that is the only way humans can ever know the Truth about God and their Purpose in Life. Anything else is just the product of the human ego.

Anyone can "believe" they have Discovered the Truth and be wrong, and when different people say they have Discovered the Truth, and those Truths are contradictory, how do you determine which one of them really has the Real Truth? Your method of Discovering Truth is thus completely illogical.

We are not supposed to judge other people. That is the teachings of all religions, judge not lest ye be judged. Only God can judge.

Everything that is not love is not hate. One can simply recognize bad behavior for what it is.

You must think you have a lot of knowledge and power, to be able to turn evil into good. I do not think I have that kind of power. People only change themselves if they choose to change. I am not going to teach him anything because he has no interest in learning.

Should I go to his attorney’s office and say I want to teach him unconditional love? How is that going to change him? He is a truly evil person, lying in order to try to extort large sums of money from my insurance company. He has no evidence of his accusations, but because of how the justice system works, he will get money, when he does not deserve one red cent. Lying is the foundation of all evil. I hope God punishes him after he dies, if not before, because that is the only way justice can be served.
[/QUOTE]


Yes, who your are is coming out.

You have made an assumption that those holy books are the truth instead of Discovering the Truth for yourself. Once you have chosen that these beliefs are the truth, you have built your life around them. Why? You Want them to be the truth. Since you want them to be the truth, you no longer question. You have accepted. Search within yourself. Discover Why you want them to be the truth.

Everyone learns regardless of their beliefs. When your actions return, in time, you will discover them for what they are rather than what you believe they are.

Clearly, you have many issues and learning to deal with. You do not really Understand what I have been telling you. Given enough time. You will for we are all walking toward the same goal.

your quote:Your method of Discovering Truth is thus completely illogical.
My answer: I realize it is beyond you at this point but only because your view is corrupted.You want your beliefs to be true. In Discovering anything, everything must add up. Everything about God Does add up unlike those holy books. Sounds logical to me.

your quote:You must think you have a lot of knowledge and power, to be able to turn evil into good.
My Answer: Since this is a multilevel classroom, Everyone has something they can teach. Change is what this world is all about.

You are right. Each must choose to change for themselves. On the other hand, everyone can point others in the right direction showing others the view they might not be aware of. I have done this with you.I can't count how many people I have seen change.

Yes, I have Discovered much, probably more than the average person. On the other hand, there is more yet to Discover than I already know. This is why I am a Hungry Student.

To Question is the start on the journey to Discovery. I have never been afraid to Question God, religion, holy books, people and everything.

To Question is a part of God's system. God wants us to Question it all. The only ones who do not want you to question are those who do not want you to Discover the Real Truth. God isn't hiding anything.

your quote:Mankind’s behavior warrants God’s wrath whenever God determines it warrants His wrath.
My Answer:How could you ever be satisfied with this answer? It points out how lacking your religion is. You are telling me do not question and did not find out. Your religion does not have the answer.Is this really God's way or mankind's way.

Do I have more knowledge of God than some old prophets that told people they were God's messenger? You can believe that one. I have been on the road to Discovery a long time and I can tell you this: God isn't going to intimidate your choices as religion and mankind attempt to do.

Religion is a catalyst that will bring out so many of mankind's problems to the surface so they can deal with them. It will work for you as well. You have my blessing.

Yes, that is how I see it.

Oh yes, maybe if you think in terms other than payback with that so called evil tenant, you might widen your view and Discover a better answer for all.

The first thing God pointed out to me was that mankind carries such a narrow view. Be open to all the possibilities around you rather than hating and getting the evil tenant.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You have made an assumption that those holy books are the truth instead of Discovering the Truth for yourself. Once you have chosen that these beliefs are the truth, you have built your life around them. Why? You Want them to be the truth. Since you want them to be the truth, you no longer question. You have accepted. Search within yourself. Discover Why you want them to be the truth.

You have made an assumption that those holy books are not the truth but instead you BELIEVE you can Discover the Truth for yourself. Once you have chosen that Discover the Truth for yourself is the truth, you have built your life around Discover the Truth for yourself. Why? You Want Discover the Truth for yourself to be the truth. Since you want Discover the Truth for yourself to be the truth, you no longer question. You have accepted. Search within yourself. Discover Why you want Discover the Truth for yourself to be the truth.
Everyone learns regardless of their beliefs. When your actions return, in time, you will discover them for what they are rather than what you believe they are.
Everyone learns but what they learn is not always the Truth. So do you think you know what my actions are indicative of rather than what I believe they are indicative of?
Clearly, you have many issues and learning to deal with. You do not really Understand what I have been telling you. Given enough time. You will for we are all walking toward the same goal.
I Understand what you have been telling me but I do not agree. Do you assume that if I understood I would agree given enough time?
my quote: Your method of Discovering Truth is thus completely illogical.

your answer: I realize it is beyond you at this point but only because your view is corrupted.You want your beliefs to be true. In Discovering anything, everything must add up. Everything about God Does add up unlike those holy books. Sounds logical to me.
You want your belief in Discovering the Truth for yourself to be true. In Discovering anything, everything must add up. Everything about God does add up in the holy books. You just do not understand what is in them or you disagree with them, so you make things up about God to suit your own purposes. In effect, you create a God in your own image, the kind of God you want God to be. Meanwhile, the real God is represented in the scriptures of the great world religions.
my quote: You must think you have a lot of knowledge and power, to be able to turn evil into good.

your answer: Since this is a multilevel classroom, Everyone has something they can teach. Change is what this world is all about.
That is true, but some people change for the better whereas other people change for the worse. With guidance from God people change for the better; without it anything is possible.
You are right. Each must choose to change for themselves. On the other hand, everyone can point others in the right direction showing others the view they might not be aware of. I have done this with you. I can't count how many people I have seen change.
They can point others in a direction that they believe is right, but it might not be right for the other person. It is not my goal to change anyone. I just share my own experiences and what I believe and people might learn from that or not. The same happens to me when others share.
Yes, I have Discovered much, probably more than the average person. On the other hand, there is more yet to Discover than I already know. This is why I am a Hungry Student.

To Question is the start on the journey to Discovery. I have never been afraid to Question God, religion, holy books, people and everything.

To Question is a part of God's system. God wants us to Question it all. The only ones who do not want you to question are those who do not want you to Discover the Real Truth. God isn't hiding anything.
I have also discovered much in life by living through many kinds of experiences, but there is much left to be discovered and learned. Questioning is good; there is nothing inherently wrong with questioning anything, even God, but questioning does not necessarily lead to the Truth. It can just as easily lead one astray. If you think that everything that you Discover is the Real Truth you must think you are infallible and thus can never be wrong.

God is not revealing anything to you; God only reveals Himself and His Will to Messengers of God. That means what you think you have discovered about God is illusory.
my quote: Mankind’s behavior warrants God’s wrath whenever God determines it warrants His wrath.

your answer: How could you ever be satisfied with this answer? It points out how lacking your religion is. You are telling me do not question and did not find out. Your religion does not have the answer. Is this really God's way or mankind's way.
God’s wrath is not only revealed in MY religion, it was also revealed in the Bible and the Qur’an. So you know more than these holy books? God’s way is not Your Way. God has wrath when it is deserved. You cannot change that by imagining a God who never gets angry. That is not Reality.
Do I have more knowledge of God than some old prophets that told people they were God's messenger? You can believe that one. I have been on the road to Discovery a long time and I can tell you this: God isn't going to intimidate your choices as religion and mankind attempt to do.
So there we have it. You think you know more than the Prophets of God. Your road to Discovery had taken a turn in the wrong direction. You do not know more than the great religions. You just think you do.
Religion is a catalyst that will bring out so many of mankind's problems to the surface so they can deal with them. It will work for you as well. You have my blessing.

Yes, that is how I see it.
True religion has the solutions to mankind’s problems and helps mankind solve their own problems.
Oh yes, maybe if you think in terms other than payback with that so called evil tenant, you might widen your view and Discover a better answer for all.
The answer is justice, not payback. That is in the hands of an able attorney.
The first thing God pointed out to me was that mankind carries such a narrow view. Be open to all the possibilities around you rather than hating and getting the evil tenant.
God did not point anything out to you because you are not a Prophet. I did not say anything about hating or getting the evil tenant. I said that I hope justice is served, if not in this world in the next.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
There is nothing stopping you from saying you know I am wrong, but if you are asserting that you would need to prove it. Otherwise you can just have an opinion that you think I am wrong.
I agree, that's my point. Your statement I was replying to there was literally "Proof is not the only way of knowing". I'm trying to show you that if that is a valid principle, it can be used against your position in exactly the same way it can be used in favour. We remain at the same impasse either way.

Hardly anyone actually answer my specific questions.
I'm not trawling back but I'm pretty sure I did answer your questions. It is possible the exact god you describe exists but it is equally possible that countless other possible gods exist instead and it's also equally possible that no gods exist at all. Anything is possible.

I appreciate your point of view, but it is not indistinguishable once one distinguishes it.... It did not take long for some of us to know it came from a real Messenger of God.But it is all in how we perceive what we read, and that will be different for everyone, even people who are Baha’is.
But that is what the followers of all the different revealed religions say (and probably honestly believe). You could be wrong and they could be right. You could all be wrong. You could all be right in some weird way. The core fact remains - nobody can know for certain (even if you believe you do).

No, because faith can become knowledge once we have proven a belief to ourselves. It is not factual knowledge, it is acquired knowledge.
Both of the definitions of the word knowledge you quoted use the word fact. Maybe you should study less theology and more basic English language. :cool:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I agree, that's my point. Your statement I was replying to there was literally "Proof is not the only way of knowing". I'm trying to show you that if that is a valid principle, it can be used against your position in exactly the same way it can be used in favour. We remain at the same impasse either way.
You are correct. It can be used either way. You can believe you know something without proof just as I can believe that. Since it cannot be proven as a fact, how can we know what is true? It is conceivable that we think we know and we are wrong. That is precisely why extensive research and investigation is necessary before we should ever believe in any given religion. That really is the best we can do. I also believe that God guides those who make the effort, and that guidance is the reason we have certitude of a belief.
I'm not trawling back but I'm pretty sure I did answer your questions. It is possible the exact god you describe exists but it is equally possible that countless other possible gods exist instead and it's also equally possible that no gods exist at all. Anything is possible.
You are right, anything is possible. It is our job to try to determine which God is the one true God, if we want to know. It is possible to know without actual proof although evidence is necessary.
But that is what the followers of all the different revealed religions say (and probably honestly believe). You could be wrong and they could be right. You could all be wrong. You could all be right in some weird way. The core fact remains - nobody can know for certain (even if you believe you do).
That is true. Nobody can know for certain, but that does not mean that there could not be one religion that God wants us to follow in this age, keeping in mind that the other religions were also valid for the ages in which they were revealed. So in that case we are all right in a sense, although the older religions are not right for this new age, since they do not have the remedy humanity needs at this time. Only the Baha'i Faith has that remedy, Imo.
Both of the definitions of the word knowledge you quoted use the word fact. Maybe you should study less theology and more basic English language.
knowledge;

1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=knowledge+means

The second definition does say "fact or situation." However, having facts is not a problem for me. Why would I believe in a religion if I had no facts about it? I have awareness of and familiarity with the Baha’i Faith because I have facts. I also have awareness of and familiarity with Baha’u’llah because I have facts. These facts are available to everyone, although it behooves them to separate facts from fiction, because some people, especially Christians and Muslims, make stuff up in order to discredit the Baha'i Faith, hoping people will "just believe" them and not do the necessary research.
 
Last edited:
Top