Atheists - A Question...

[Alien826]

@Alien826 I wanted to ask you something. It's more a question for atheists, but I'm not sure if you are. Are you atheist?

I don't have a simple yes or no answer. You may be interested in my history regarding belief.

I grew up in a culture (England, 1940s) where Christianity was pretty much the default position. My parents didn't go to church and didn't push any belief system on me. I thought about it and considered most of the "supernatural" side of Christianity, like virgin birth, Trinity and so on, to be highly dubious. For many years I labelled myself "agnostic". Later, I thought more about it and decided that given the very low probability I assigned to the existence of god/s, "atheist" was the more accurate word.

Then something weird happened. I had a Christian friend that I discussed all this with. I had decided that if I wanted to settle the question, I should go to the "horse's mouth", so to speak, that is I should pray and see if I got a response. I asked my friend to pray too. I tried to make my request as respectful as I could, carefully avoiding any time limit or specifying how the response should be framed. To my great surprise I got a response, not in words, but convincing to me. Then followed several years where I investigated Christianity, by joining a church and attending services and so on. My position at that point was that I had established the existence of something but I still didn't know what that something was. I asked to be enlightened.

Then another weird thing happened. It all just faded away. I got bored with church, stopped feeling the presence of "something" and eventually resumed my secular life.

So, I think I am once again probably best described as atheist. I'm certainly atheist as far as the god you describe goes.

So, ask your question.

Before I ask, I left a few things unfinished.

If you don't mind, I won't continue with this discussion. I've answered everything you say already and I don't see much point carrying on. It's been enjoyable though!

 

[nPeace]

I don't have a simple yes or no answer. You may be interested in my history regarding belief.

I grew up in a culture (England, 1940s) where Christianity was pretty much the default position. My parents didn't go to church and didn't push any belief system on me. I thought about it and considered most of the "supernatural" side of Christianity, like virgin birth, Trinity and so on, to be highly dubious. For many years I labelled myself "agnostic". Later, I thought more about it and decided that given the very low probability I assigned to the existence of god/s, "atheist" was the more accurate word.

Then something weird happened. I had a Christian friend that I discussed all this with. I had decided that if I wanted to settle the question, I should go to the "horse's mouth", so to speak, that is I should pray and see if I got a response. I asked my friend to pray too. I tried to make my request as respectful as I could, carefully avoiding any time limit or specifying how the response should be framed. To my great surprise I got a response, not in words, but convincing to me. Then followed several years where I investigated Christianity, by joining a church and attending services and so on. My position at that point was that I had established the existence of something but I still didn't know what that something was. I asked to be enlightened.

Then another weird thing happened. It all just faded away. I got bored with church, stopped feeling the presence of "something" and eventually resumed my secular life.

So, I think I am once again probably best described as atheist. I'm certainly atheist as far as the god you describe goes.

So, ask your question.



If you don't mind, I won't continue with this discussion. I've answered everything you say already and I don't see much point carrying on. It's been enjoyable though!

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Alien826]

Okay. Thanks.

No question?

 

[nPeace]

No question?

Oh, I thought you were referring to the entire post.
The question is at the end of that post.

 

[Alien826]

Oh, I thought you were referring to the entire post.
The question is at the end of that post.

Another classic misunderstanding! I thought you were waiting on my answer as to whether I was an atheist, and if I said yes you would ask the question.

No problem, I'll answer it now.

Can you not see this happening at all?
Is it something you think one would only see in fantasy?
If not by God, can you see it happening by man, or happening at all?

As the link didn't survive my copy and paste (edit: yes it did, it didn't in preview), and I have trouble posting pictures, here's what I see.

A picture of a small child with a mature male lion, a leopard, two calves, a lamb, a kid (goat), and a wolf, all sitting or standing peacefully together. It illustrates Isaiah 11:6-9

6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

The preceding text makes it clear that this is future event, in the time of the Messiah (is that right? Future definitely).

Do I see it happening?

Obviously a powerful God could do it. He'd have to make adjustments, for example a lion couldn't survive on straw.

By man? I guess we could set up the scene with trained animals, but the rest would need some kind of genetic manipulation, not totally inconceivable, but not with current technology.

Otherwise (spontaneously)? Only in fantasy.

It's a lovely idea though, pure poetry.

 

[F1fan]

Another classic misunderstanding! I thought you were waiting on my answer as to whether I was an atheist, and if I said yes you would ask the question.

No problem, I'll answer it now.



As the link didn't survive my copy and paste (edit: yes it did, it didn't in preview), and I have trouble posting pictures, here's what I see.

A picture of a small child with a mature male lion, a leopard, two calves, a lamb, a kid (goat), and a wolf, all sitting or standing peacefully together. It illustrates Isaiah 11:6-9

6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

The preceding text makes it clear that this is future event, in the time of the Messiah (is that right? Future definitely).

Do I see it happening?

Obviously a powerful God could do it. He'd have to make adjustments, for example a lion couldn't survive on straw.

By man? I guess we could set up the scene with trained animals, but the rest would need some kind of genetic manipulation, not totally inconceivable, but not with current technology.

Otherwise (spontaneously)? Only in fantasy.

It's a lovely idea though, pure poetry.

It is absurd to interpret that quote literally. To a mind without religious assumptions it suggests to me that the predators are tribes of people who are aggressive and wage war and the meek are those tribes that prefer peace and security. These have to be symbolic, and an appeal to God to help the targeted tribes from war. In Judaic thought a messiah could be anyone who helps, not the Messiah as Christian lore explains it. So Caananites looking for a messiah is likley them waiting for a leader that will help bring a miracle and maintain their way of life.

 

[Alien826]

It is absurd to interpret that quote literally. To a mind without religious assumptions it suggests to me that the predators are tribes of people who are aggressive and wage war and the meek are those tribes that prefer peace and security. These have to be symbolic, and an appeal to God to help the targeted tribes from war. In Judaic thought a messiah could be anyone who helps, not the Messiah as Christian lore explains it. So Caananites looking for a messiah is likley them waiting for a leader that will help bring a miracle and maintain their way of life.

From an atheist pov, OK.

But, @nPeace and I have been discussing contradictions based on taking it literally. To do that I have to accept his position, arguendo.

 

[nPeace]

Another classic misunderstanding! I thought you were waiting on my answer as to whether I was an atheist, and if I said yes you would ask the question.

No problem, I'll answer it now.



As the link didn't survive my copy and paste (edit: yes it did, it didn't in preview), and I have trouble posting pictures, here's what I see.

A picture of a small child with a mature male lion, a leopard, two calves, a lamb, a kid (goat), and a wolf, all sitting or standing peacefully together. It illustrates Isaiah 11:6-9

6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

The preceding text makes it clear that this is future event, in the time of the Messiah (is that right? Future definitely).

Do I see it happening?

Obviously a powerful God could do it. He'd have to make adjustments, for example a lion couldn't survive on straw.

By man? I guess we could set up the scene with trained animals, but the rest would need some kind of genetic manipulation, not totally inconceivable, but not with current technology.

Otherwise (spontaneously)? Only in fantasy.

It's a lovely idea though, pure poetry.

So you don't see it happening, yet it's part of us... even living in such conditions, without dying... Why do you think that is?

 

[nPeace]

From an atheist pov, OK.

But, @nPeace and I have been discussing contradictions based on taking it literally. To do that I have to accept his position, arguendo.

The Messianic prophecies are part of two fold prophecies, so one who sees a symbolic application are not necessarily incorrect... in some cases However, there is a future fulfillment that is literal.

Persons may dispute that, but I understand why.
If everyone understood the deep things of God, including the sacred secret, that would render the scriptures void... Especially an atheist.
1 Corinthians 2:6-13

Consider just one example...
Note the superscription... Regarding Solomon
Now read Psalm 72:7-19

All that is said there did not, and could not occur in relation to Solomon... as known by all.
It's a two fold prophecy, but mainly pertains to the symbolic, or greater Solomon's rule.
This is how most of the scriptures are written... but don't expect an atheist, or any arrogant individual, to get it.
What did Jesus say? "Unless you become like a little child..."

Take note that Jesus explained to his followers... and they listened, and gained understanding... even if some things were not clear. (Matthew 13:10-16)
Jesus said...
“These are my words that I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written about me in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.” (Luke 24:44)

So clearly, all who don't accept that the Hebrew scriptures were indeed about the Messiah, and prophetic, are missing the boat.
That includes any Jews who don't accept the Greek scriptures.

 

[Alien826]

So you don't see it happening, yet it's part of us... even living in such conditions, without dying... Why do you think that is?

I don't understand. What is part of us? When do we live without dying?

 

[nPeace]

I don't understand. What is part of us? When do we live without dying?

Don't man have a desire to live on without dying, and to enjoy peaceful condition with nature - animals included?
When would you like to die?
Well, I know people would probably want to die when they are old, but isn't that because of their infirmities?

 

[Alien826]

The Messianic prophecies are part of two fold prophecies, so one who sees a symbolic application are not necessarily incorrect... in some cases However, there is a future fulfillment that is literal.

Persons may dispute that, but I understand why.
If everyone understood the deep things of God, including the sacred secret, that would render the scriptures void... Especially an atheist.
1 Corinthians 2:6-13

Consider just one example...
Note the superscription... Regarding Solomon
Now read Psalm 72:7-19

All that is said there did not, and could not occur in relation to Solomon... as known by all.
It's a two fold prophecy, but mainly pertains to the symbolic, or greater Solomon's rule.
This is how most of the scriptures are written... but don't expect an atheist, or any arrogant individual, to get it.
What did Jesus say? "Unless you become like a little child..."

Take note that Jesus explained to his followers... and they listened, and gained understanding... even if some things were not clear. (Matthew 13:10-16)
Jesus said...
“These are my words that I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written about me in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.” (Luke 24:44)

So clearly, all who don't accept that the Hebrew scriptures were indeed about the Messiah, and prophetic, are missing the boat.
That includes any Jews who don't accept the Greek scriptures.

More preaching, and calling me arrogant too. No need to apologize, I'm used to it.

Something I thought about when you called me names (and apologized, np). The big difference between you and me as far as these discussions go is that you really care deeply about all this and I don't. I'm here to enjoy a discussion and pass some time. You are pushing a viewpoint that is basic to your whole life.

I don't think either of us has any expectation of changing the the other's views in any way, so let's drop the theology for a bit and answer this, a question for both of us.

Why are we here (on religiousforums)? I think I answered above. What's your answer?

 

[Alien826]

Don't man have a desire to live on without dying, and to enjoy peaceful condition with nature - animals included?
When would you like to die?
Well, I know people would probably want to die when they are old, but isn't that because of their infirmities?

Oh, I see. You're saying the desire to live forever in harmony is part of us.

I agree, mostly. I'll be 82 next month, and to your point, I find myself less and less able to do things (physically). That's depressing and if I get to be in constant pain, for example, I'd be OK with a peaceful death. I'll add that I would greatly wish that we could live on this planet without abusing the other species that share it with us. So far, I agree with you.

I'll say one thing about living forever. I would think that eventually I would be bored out of my mind, and would welcome an end to it. Nevertheless a few more years would be OK.

The problem is, wanting something doesn't make it possible. "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride".

 

[nPeace]

Oh, I see. You're saying the desire to live forever in harmony is part of us.

I agree, mostly. I'll be 82 next month, and to your point, I find myself less and less able to do things (physically). That's depressing and if I get to be in constant pain, for example, I'd be OK with a peaceful death. I'll add that I would greatly wish that we could live on this planet without abusing the other species that share it with us. So far, I agree with you.

I'll say one thing about living forever. I would think that eventually I would be bored out of my mind, and would welcome an end to it. Nevertheless a few more years would be OK.

The problem is, wanting something doesn't make it possible. "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride".

I guess some people are bored because they have been programmed to sit and watch the idiot box, or play with some gadget, and miss out on the many things in life that one can do... and have not done.
Does that describe you, would you say?

 

[Alien826]

I guess some people are bored because they have been programmed to sit and watch the idiot box, or play with some gadget, and miss out on the many things in life that one can do... and have not done.
Does that describe you, would you say?

I didn't say I was bored now. I was referring to an infinite afterlife. First you do everything you can think of to do. Then you do it all again. Then you think of some more things to do and do them again and again. Eventually you done everything that's possible so many times that you're tired of all of them. That's my picture of an infinite life, even in some kind of perfect place.

 

[nPeace]

I didn't say I was bored now. I was referring to an infinite afterlife. First you do everything you can think of to do. Then you do it all again. Then you think of some more things to do and do them again and again. Eventually you done everything that's possible so many times that you're tired of all of them. That's my picture of an infinite life, even in some kind of perfect place.

I know what you said.
I still say it's based on our mentality.

• Right now, I have a million things I would like to do, which I haven't done, and currently can't.
• Neuroscientists [say they] have found evidence that our brains could have 10 times the memory capacity previously thought, bringing the total amount - in computer terms - to at least 1 petabyte (1 million GB) of storage space. That's equivalent to the memory capacity of roughly 31,250 iPhone 7s (the 32 GB kind) - all in the human brain.
• God is forever. (Psalm 90:2) Before the mountains were born Or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, From everlasting to everlasting, you are God.
• Scientists say, some 297,326 species of plants have been identified...
• Scientists say there are currently over 1.5 million species of animals, including insects.
• Scientists say up to a million species live in the seas, and two-thirds of those ocean-dwellers may still be undiscovered...
• Scientists say averaging out the types of stars within our galaxy, this would produce an answer of about 100 billion stars in the galaxy. This is subject to change, however, depending on how many stars are bigger and smaller than our own sun. Also, other estimates say the Milky Way could have 200 billion stars or more.
• Concerning the number of galaxies, while estimates among different experts vary, an acceptable range is between 100 billion and 200 billion galaxies. This despite admitting that counting them seems like an impossible task. Sheer numbers is one problem - once the count gets into the billions, it takes a while to do the addition. Another problem is the limitation of our instruments.
• A common, but true statement is, "The more we learn, the less we know."

So if persons are able to see more than the idiot box, and the gadgets man gives them to play with, and take a moment each day to reflect on life... the way it could be, they would not have such a limited view on a real life, imo.

Added to the fact that this life is such that most American, Chinese, etc. know one word very well - "Rush".
Everything seems to be "in the fast lane", so taking time to do anything is like non-existent.
Some don't even have time to spend time with their children. They bring their work home as well.

Considering all this, let's slow down.
I see a million years gone by, and only 0.1% of the above list covered. That's me. Although I don't consider myself a good Mathematician.

However, let's say it took us 1 billion years before we did everything. That's good so far right?
That's awesome, actually.

Now consider this... Do you not know? Have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, is a God for all eternity. He never tires out or grows weary. His understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28)
You are opening your hand And satisfying the desire of every living thing. (Psalm 145:16)

Perhaps now you can understand why only those with faith gain these riches right.
A faithless person will obviously lack appreciation for these things. They are foolishness to him.
He cannot see beyond what his carnal mind considers.

The one who sees the creator, knows that one is eternal - does not wear out; unlimited in power - therefore able to produce things our very tiny minds can't even imagine... One person said, Quote The Universe is not only stranger than you think; it’s stranger than you can imagine. Unquote. Richard Feynman
The creator is able to satisfy every living thing, as long as God is - forever.

However, I understand your vision.
Thanks for your response.

 

[Alien826]

However, let's say it took us 1 billion years before we did everything. That's good so far right?
That's awesome, actually.

Yes, but if the time is infinite, you still have an infinite time to go. There is no finite number of activities that cannot be concluded in infinite time.

Now consider this... Do you not know? Have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, is a God for all eternity. He never tires out or grows weary. His understanding is unsearchable. (Isaiah 40:28)
You are opening your hand And satisfying the desire of every living thing. (Psalm 145:16)

That's God though isn't it? Not humans.

Perhaps now you can understand why only those with faith gain these riches right.
A faithless person will obviously lack appreciation for these things. They are foolishness to him.
He cannot see beyond what his carnal mind considers.

The one who sees the creator, knows that one is eternal - does not wear out; unlimited in power - therefore able to produce things our very tiny minds can't even imagine... One person said, Quote The Universe is not only stranger than you think; it’s stranger than you can imagine. Unquote. Richard Feynman
The creator is able to satisfy every living thing, as long as God is - forever.

I suppose that a God that can do anything can come up with enough experiences that will satisfy everyone for infinite time, even if they have to be repeated. On the other hand, I'm assuming that we are talking about a human being that is at least somewhat similar to how we are now. Do you think that, having observed a million planets, the million and first would be of any interest?

You do raise something interesting though. You say only people of faith can appreciate all this. Why? Imagine me, if you like, dying and finding myself in some kind of spiritual dimension. I would believe it, because I have always been able to accept facts when they are demonstrated. Why would I not be able to appreciate "these things"? Frankly, it seems like a very exciting new life to explore. Why the emphasis on believing now?

Thanks for your response.

And yours.

 

[nPeace]

Yes, but if the time is infinite, you still have an infinite time to go. There is no finite number of activities that cannot be concluded in infinite time.

Maybe you said this before reading further down.

That's God though isn't it? Not humans.

Have you not heard of "having the mind of God"?
None of us, can, but that's the point. If we did, then we would become bored, since nothing would be new to us.

Edit @Alien826
The Word - Jesus, in heaven, comes to mind.
He spent eons with his father, before God started creating.
The first things God made were spirit creatures.
Evidently, years later, God created the universe, and earth.
Then he made all earthly things, and finally man.

This is what the Word said... " I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men." (Proverbs 8:31)
That was something new, and God's son was excited about it.

That illustrates why life could never be boring.

I suppose that a God that can do anything can come up with enough experiences that will satisfy everyone for infinite time, even if they have to be repeated. On the other hand, I'm assuming that we are talking about a human being that is at least somewhat similar to how we are now. Do you think that, having observed a million planets, the million and first would be of any interest?

Why not?
Haven't scientists been discovering new and interesting things.
What did Richard Feynman say, Quote The Universe is not only stranger than you think; it’s stranger than you can imagine. Unquote.

If our puny mind and instruments can lead us to such a conclusion, what would infinite and unlimited discoveries look like.
It would still be stranger than we can imagine... no matter how new it is... to us.

You do raise something interesting though. You say only people of faith can appreciate all this. Why? Imagine me, if you like, dying and finding myself in some kind of spiritual dimension. I would believe it, because I have always been able to accept facts when they are demonstrated. Why would I not be able to appreciate "these things"? Frankly, it seems like a very exciting new life to explore. Why the emphasis on believing now?

Faith is not required if something is seen.
Do you need faith that a chair is beneath you, and a device is in front of you? Exactly.
(Romans 8:24-25) 24. . .when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep eagerly waiting for it with endurance.

You would not hope for something you have no faith in, would you?
For example, you may hope that the rain falls tomorrow and wet your plants, because you have faith that the rain definitely fall at some time.
You don't think it won't ever rain again.
However, you will never hope that it rains money in your back yard. You have no faith in that ever happening. Right?

So, the things we have not physically see, can be seen only with eyes of faith - that is, based on what evidence we have these realities are seen... as clearly as the writing on my screen.

Interesting what you said. There are some who would see what is before their eyes, and not believe it.
However, seeing something... physically, is not having faith.

(Hebrews 11:1) Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen.

Once you actually see these realities.. not with physical eyes, you are sure - certain of what you look forward to.
Your appreciation for them, and for the one who promised them is enhanced, and you no longer live your life as though what matters is here and now - unappreciative.
(1 Corinthians 2:14) . . .But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. . .
The expression physical man there means carnal minded. The opposite of spiritual. See Romans 8:5-8

 

[Joshua Pryce]

Atheists... If this happened to you, would this convince you that the spiritual side of life is a reality - that miracles and the supernatural are real?
Or would you attribute it to a 'natural' phenomenon - perhaps associated with some scientific experiment or mind altering technology?

I am not an atheist but its unlikely that this would happen, because miracles are Gods intervention but that takes asking and consideration and certain belief systems to come into fruition. No one achieves anything without asking someone or demanding something first.