Atheism is just another religion

[Merlin]

I made that chance remark in another thread and unleashed a quite vitriolic response from atheists seemingly horrified at being told they were 'religious'. But it is obvious to me that they have immense faith in their belief system.

I am amazed people do not see atheism as a religion. Being an agnostic is not a religion. they acknowledge that something might exist, even if they think it probably does not.

But to believe absolutely (with no proof) that NOTHING exists needs faith; and a very deep faith. Nobody can be absolutely sure that nothing supernatural exists, but some people believe with all their hearts that this is true. That is a religious belief.

They alway use the fact that there is no proof God exists as an argument in favour of Atheism as a religion. But there is no proof that God does not exist either, so where is the difference.

They also say that they have no dogma. Well some theist religions have no dogma either. They say they have no church. There are even theistic religions without a formal church.

Any belief system related to God and the afterlife that requires faith to accept it is a religion. Especially those with evangelists (and atheists have plenty of those)

It is also a bad bet. Theists have a win-lose scenario. Atheists have a lose-lose scenario.

The logic is simple. There are only 2 possibilities.

1. There is a God
2. There is no God

There are 2 human belief systems:

A. I believe
B. I do not believe.

If someone believes, then they have a 50:50 chance of being right and finding 'salvation'.

If someone does not believe then they are damned whether there is or is not a God. In other words they have reduced their chances from 50% to zero.

That is why you must have a seriously strong faith to believe absolutely in nothing.

 

[Malus 12:9]

...........

 

[retrorich]

Oh, no--not this boring, dead-end topic again! My friend, if you wish to believe that atheism is a religion (although it most certainly is not), be my guest. PEACE

 

[apostle_ndr]

Saying that atheism is a religion is like saying science is a religion. Neither of them accept anything by faith, only by proof and logic. In my personal case, I don't believe in any type of god because I have no reason to. I've grown so far beyond the idea of a personal god that I no longer bother arguing with myself, what if? Similar to when you reach that certain point in life when you realize Santa Claus never existed. You don't need to question it, you know (not believe). If you want to go so far as to say, There's no proof Santa doesn't exist, then, there's no proof Luke Skywalker doesn't exist, or Gandalf, or Stewie Griffin, Pikachu, and Zeus. You don't give them the benefit of the doubt, do you?

It is also a bad bet. Theists have a win-lose scenario. Atheists have a lose-lose scenario.

The logic is simple. There are only 2 possibilities.

1. There is a God
2. There is no God

There are 2 human belief systems:

A. I believe
B. I do not believe.

If someone believes, then they have a 50:50 chance of being right and finding 'salvation'.

If someone does not believe then they are damned whether there is or is not a God. In other words they have reduced their chances from 50% to zero.

A. With that logic in mind, consider how many different gods there are. Can I say nearer 100,000 (perhaps thousands more) that have risen and fallen over the centuries in various parts of the world?

You worship one god, you might be pissing off one of 99,999 other gods. Let's see your odds:

1:100,000

You have a 0.00001% chance of having chosen the right god.

B. I think that anyone chooses a religion for the sole purpose of being saved isn't true to that religion. You can't be a true theist while saying, "I might be wrong, but I have a 50:50 chance, so I'll believe just in case." Assuming a god did exist and ask for unquestioning loyalty.. is he going to be happy that you believed in him on a "just-in-case" basis?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But it is obvious to me that they have immense faith in their belief system.

Then, perhaps, the problem is you. The fact remains: (a) atheism is not a belief system, and (b) it does not take "immense faith" to withhold belief in the absence of evidence warranting such belief.

 

[Malus 12:9]

That is why you must have a seriously strong faith to believe absolutely in nothing.

Oddly enough, there is a difference in believing in nothing, and not believing in anything.

 

[Chimowowo]

You're actually arguing two different things here, and we atheists are arguing the second point rather than the first.

You're saying that atheists is a relgion, and that religion takes great faith.

As far as atheism being a religion...yeah, I define it as a religion. I define a religion as a belief system, and I believe something, everyone does. By my definition everyone has a religion (even agnostics). That's mostly semantics though. Alot of atheists don't mind having it called a religion.

The point we are arguing though (at least for me) is that it takes great faith to believe in no god. It takes no faith in me to believe in no god. Mainly because a god makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. (besides if you believe in a God just because you will burn in hell otherwise, is that really believing?)

There is no evidence for or against god. That doesn't mean it takes faith to believe in either. I simply take what I know and what is out there, analyze it and then decide which one makes the most sense. No faith involved.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As far as atheism being a religion...yeah, I define it as a religion. I define a religion as a belief system, ...

The decision not to believe in deity is no more a religion than is the decision not to believe in mermaids. Furthermore, equating "religion" to "belief system" renders the former term worthless.

 

[Green Gaia]

Atheism is not a religion, just as theism is not a religion.

 

[Malus 12:9]

In fact I believe everyone has some sort of belief system whether they or not they call it a 'religion' is up to them. [/color]

In fact, I actually agree with you..a belief system can involve other aspects than religion.
Do you take frubals?

 

[Chimowowo]

The decision not to believe in deity is no more a religion than is the decision not to believe in mermaids. Furthermore, equating "religion" to "belief system" renders the former term worthless.

Possibly. I might have to breakout a dictionary. But even still I don't think it's a far stretch. Religion doesn't have to be practiced to be a religion. I'm not saying religion and belief system are one and the same, but they are interrelated. Besides most survey forms list Atheism as a religion.

Now after having said that, lets consult the dictionary:

1. 1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
   2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

So the difference between religion and belief system seems to be the degree to which you believe it and how activly you practice it.

 

[Green Gaia]

Besides most survey forms list Atheism as a religion

Then they are in error for doing so. Atheism can describe a person's belief system, but it is not a belief system itself.

 

[retrorich]

Possibly. I might have to breakout a dictionary. But even still I don't think it's a far stretch. Religion doesn't have to be practiced to be a religion. I'm not saying religion and belief system are one and the same, but they are interrelated. Besides most survey forms list Atheism as a religion.

Now after having said that, lets consult the dictionary:

1. 1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
   2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

So the difference between religion and belief system seems to be the degree to which you believe it and how activly you practice it.

Definition 3. above does not apply to the sense in which the term "religion" is most commonly used in religious forums. I pursue baseball with zeal and conscientious devotion. Does that make baseball a religion?

 

[Chimowowo]

I guess it's going to come down to the person. Baseball isn't your religion, but someone could make it their religion. Atheism itself isn't a religion, but some people do make it their religion. I personally don't care if you label it a religion or not. So long as you understand what I believe.

That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet

 

[Pah]

The logic is simple. There are only 2 possibilities.

1. There is a God
2. There is no God

You missed quite a few. God if he exists, doesn't matter in a humanistic system. God if he exists, doesn't matter in a secular system. God if he does not exist, doesn't matter in a humanistic system. God if he does not exist, doesn't matter in a secular system. God was a creator and is now dead. A pantheon exists/doesn't exist with all the "doesn't matter" permutations for "god". I even suppose there are more. It is simplistic for you because you have not, in your bias, considered all the possiblites

There are 2 human belief systems:

A. I believe
B. I do not believe.

If someone believes, then they have a 50:50 chance of being right and finding 'salvation'.

Who absolutely needs salvation? Reincarnation ring a bell? Again you speak from a bias.

If someone does not believe then they are damned whether there is or is not a God. In other words they have reduced their chances from 50% to zero.

That is why you must have a seriously strong faith to believe absolutely in nothing.

So says you in all your glorious bias

I cut a great deal of your post. :woohoo:

 

[JerryL]

But to believe absolutely (with no proof) that NOTHING exists needs faith; and a very deep faith.

That's the reason you are having trouble. It's not that I have a positive belief in NOTHING, it's that I lack a positive belief in something.

As Jayhawker said, it's much like my lack of belief in mermaids.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I might have to breakout a dictionary.

Definition #3 is worthless to any serious discussion. To say that one's love for the Cubs is a religion is characterization by comparison; it is to say that one's attitude towards that team exhibits the same zeal and devotion as typically associated with religious zeal and devotion. To employ such vernacular in a sports bar is fine; to fall back on it in a discussion of metaphysics is sloppy at best.

I'm not saying religion and belief system are one and the same, but they are interrelated.

That impressed me as a completely irrelevant and underwhelming observation. Given that you have offered no reason to classify atheism as a belief system, and given that you are "not saying religion and belief system are one and the same", it becomes more than a little difficult to make sense of your position.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet

But you don't call it a rose. You simply tell us that the rose and it are "interrelated".

 

[JerryL]

There are 2 human belief systems:

A. I believe
B. I do not believe.

If someone believes, then they have a 50:50 chance of being right and finding 'salvation'.

Ahh. Pascal's wager.

First: it's not "50:50", unless any belief counts and god is just as likely as no God.
Second: What if, hypothetically, there's a God who hates people worrying about God and the afterlife (why he's been careful to leave no proof of his existance). In which case athiests get savlation and thiests don't.

 

[michel]

Atheism is not a religion, just as theism is not a religion.

Exactly. From what I see, atheism could best be defined as a 'way of thinking' - is that the same as a philosophy?:help: