Atheism - I don't understand it

[Willamena]

But what you are doing is attributing events to a particular causation. The question that has to be done is: why did you choose this given cause?

The problem with attributing rationalization to this (the attributing of events to a particular cause) is that if you choose rationalization as the cause of this, you have rationalized it.

 

[Hawkins]

The difference is the biochemical reactions taking place within the live cat's body through the use of it's vital organs.

Spirits have never been shown to exist, cats, humans or otherwise.

History is written by historians, we don't usually examine historical evidence ourselves. We are educated to believe to an extent what is said. Some history can hardly be verified by historians themselves. You simply choose to believe or not.

Similarly, God contacted His witnesses and a book was written about it. You just choose to trust them or you not.

Sometimes you need faith to approach truth. Truth can be categorized as,

1) truth which are evidenced
2) truth which are not evidenced or even cannot be evidenced (such as certain history)

By using the so-called "empirical approach", one can never ever reach the truth in category 2). With faith, one can!

 

[Looncall]

History is written by historians, we don't usually examine historical evidence ourselves. We are educated to believe to an extent what is said. Some history can hardly be verified by historians themselves. You simply choose to believe or not.

Similarly, God contacted His witnesses and a book was written about it. You just choose to trust them or you not.

Sometimes you need faith to approach truth. Truth can be categorized as,

1) truth which are evidenced
2) truth which are not evidenced or even cannot be evidenced (such as certain history)

By using the so-called "empirical approach", one can never ever reach the truth in category 2). With faith, one can!

But how can you make sure that you have?

 

[A Troubled Man]

Some history can hardly be verified by historians themselves.

Such as what?

Similarly, God contacted His witnesses and a book was written about it. You just choose to trust them or you not.

That's obviously baloney because it isn't supported in any way.

Sometimes you need faith to approach truth. Truth can be categorized as,

1) truth which are evidenced
2) truth which are not evidenced or even cannot be evidenced (such as certain history)

Sorry, but only the former is true, the latter is not.

By using the so-called "empirical approach", one can never ever reach the truth in category 2). With faith, one can!

That's called delusion.

 

[idea]

I think your perceptions have been tainted by your religious background. What separates the living from the non-living is differences in arrangements of matter..

A recently dead cat and a living cat have the same matter within their bodies, same chemical composition, same weight, same everything... there are no differences in the arrangements of the matter...

 

[idea]

But I don't see that. So how do you know your perception is accurate? How can you demonstrate that the way you see the world is actually how the world is?.

It comes down to the existence of free will perhaps - are we robots, our actions nothing more than reactions to what is around us? or can we act for ourselves without being coerced?

I believe we are more than nature/nurture. There are many examples of those whose character is not a product of their DNA, and not a function of where they grew up. I believe I can take responsibility for my actions, thoughts and character, and not just blame my life on who my parents are, or what side of town I grew up in. Yes, nature/nurture play a role and give us experience, but I believe all of us can rise above (or fall beneath) what we were raised to be.

I believe we all have the ability to choose. Choose to believe that we are all:

1.) robots, victims of DNA/neighborhood, slaves who only react to our environment, who cannot really think for themselves, or create anything, or imagine, or dream, or proactively change themselves, who have no responsibility - that we are just victims reacting as we are programmed to react...

2.) We are endowed with mind/spirit/conscience/intelligence/will that is capable of acting, not just reacting, to our environment. We can change ourselves, we choose our character, we choose our thoughts and our actions, we choose our beliefs/ We can create, and imagine, dream, and hope.


Those who hold to the victimization mentality of "I can't help who I am, blame my parents, blame my neighborhood, it's all their fault" choose their beliefs - we are all free to choose... I choose to take responsibility for my own character, I choose to have faith that who I am is more than where I grew up, and what the color of my skin is (DNA). I choose to believe that I am not a robot, but instead a soul made up of spirit and matter. I believe my spirit came from God, is the animating force of my being, and is an entity with free will capable of acting, rather than just being acted upon. These beliefs have allowed me to change myself, to become a better person, and to continue to have hope that there is hope for everyone.

 

[Koldo]

A recently dead cat and a living cat have the same matter within their bodies, same chemical composition, same weight, same everything... there are no differences in the arrangements of the matter...

There are differences. For starters, its blood won't be oxygenated anymore.

 

[Koldo]

Those who hold to the victimization mentality of "I can't help who I am, blame my parents, blame my neighborhood, it's all their fault" choose their beliefs - we are all free to choose... I choose to take responsibility for my own character, I choose to have faith that who I am is more than where I grew up, and what the color of my skin is (DNA).

Just to let you know. The bolded sentence isn't what determinists stand for.

 

[Looncall]

A recently dead cat and a living cat have the same matter within their bodies, same chemical composition, same weight, same everything... there are no differences in the arrangements of the matter...

Wrong. They differ by whatever caused the dead one to die.

 

[idea]

Just to let you know. The bolded sentence isn't what determinists stand for.

not really a matter of determinism, but of who determines what. I'm a determinist, but I believe I can determine my own actions. That is what free will is - it's determining your own actions, which is determinism. I believe in cause and effect, that every effect has a cause. I believe intelligence/will/spirit/mind/thought - is a cause.... others believe the only cause are things like F=ma (and where did the laws like F=ma come from anyways?) there are laws/order/purpose/direction/causation - these are all directed.

put the dead critter on a life machine, pump some Oxygen into it, do a blood transfusion - you can still end up with a dead oxygenated cat

 

[idea]

Wrong. They differ by whatever caused the dead one to die.

Recently I was discussing some accounts of POW’s and concentration camp survivors. These two groups of people both made similar observations on who survived and who did not. In the Korean war, Chinese Communists screened out prisoners with leadership abilities and those with overt religious faith – traits found in about 5% of the population. Frightening trends were observed in the remaining 95% of the prisoners. Left without leaders, there was not one permanent escape from the Korean prison camps even when there was only an average of 6 armed guards to every 500 to 600 Americans, no guard dos, no machine gun towers, no electric fences or searchlights. More alarming, 38% of the prisoners died – not of starvation or epidemics or from any mass executions. Rather, most of the men died of a psychological disease, unnamed by the medical Corps, but dubbed “give-up-itis” by the soldiers themselves. The conclusion of the army’s study was that these boys were ignorant about who they were and what they were fighting for, and so had few inner resources that could give them the courage to rise above their obstacles. (from speech made by Major William Meyer, Army Medical corps, in San Francisco in 1958. This material has now been declassified by the Department of Defense.)


Lusseyran and Victor Frankl wrote similarly of those in concentration camps. Frankl said “They died less from lack of food or medicine than from lack of hope, lack of something to live for.” Frankl goes on to say “Life is not primarily a quest for pleasure, as Freud believed, or a quest for power, as Alfred Adler taught, but a quest for Meaning… He who has a Why to live for can bear almost any how.”

yes, interesting to see what kills...

interesting to see what types of things can sustain life too...
http://www.karmatube.org/videos.php?id=2571

mind over matter?

we're all imperfect, sin is the real author of death... faith is the author of life.

 

[Koldo]

not really a matter of determinism, but of who determines what. I'm a determinist, but I believe I can determine my own actions. That is what free will is - it's determining your own actions, which is determinism. I believe in cause and effect, that every effect has a cause. I believe intelligence/will/spirit/mind/thought - is a cause.... others believe the only cause are things like F=ma (and where did the laws like F=ma come from anyways?) there are laws/order/purpose/direction/causation - these are all directed.

You are playing semantics here. :sarcastic

put the dead critter on a life machine, pump some Oxygen into it, do a blood transfusion - you can still end up with a dead oxygenated cat

Brain cells are destroyed after 4 to 6 minutes without oxygen.

 

[idea]

Brain cells are destroyed after 4 to 6 minutes without oxygen.

you are avoiding the question of death. It is possible to have a dead animal that has the same chemical makeup as their living counterpart... oxygen is not a cure for death. The difference between the living and the dead is not materialistic in nature.

 

[Koldo]

you are avoiding the question of death. It is possible to have a dead animal that has the same chemical makeup as their living counterpart... oxygen is not a cure for death. The difference between the living and the dead is not materialistic in nature.

An insufficient number of working brain cells to sustain brain activities is a considerable difference between a dead and a living cat, don't you think?

 

[silenceinmotion]

Determinism and indeterminism are interchangeable. That is sort of the contradiction of using either as a defense for, well, anything really.

All determinism is, is a specific piece in a process of indeterminism and vice versa. You see, I chose to write this post, and this will determine the future, but the past is what determined that I would write this post. They are two sides of the same coin, and only differ in semantics.

 

[Koldo]

Determinism and indeterminism are interchangeable. That is sort of the contradiction of using either as a defense for, well, anything really.

All determinism is, is a specific piece in a process of indeterminism and vice versa. You see, I chose to write this post, and this will determine the future, but the past is what determined that I would write this post. They are two sides of the same coin, and only differ in semantics.

To whom are you directing this post to?

 

[kellykep]

Before joining the forum I had never seriously conversed with an atheist person regarding God. If I remember correctly one of the first debates I got into RF was with an atheist whose basic point was something like - "I don't believe in God as there is no evidence for God". What I don't understand even today, is how can one be sure there is no evidence for God. In Islam we are taught that by following the straight part shown by the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ultimately God's knowledge is bestowed. That is to say, there is a pre-requisite for acquiring that evidence, and one has to strive for it.

I do not understand the average atheists position clearly. Does he/she not believe in God because
1. He/she feels like it, or
2. He/she feels that if there was any evidence it would be known to him/her already and since nothing is known so there can't be any evidence.

There are two (2) types of atheists.

1. One does not believe in God
2. Another believes that God does not exist

The atheist who does not believe in God believes in something else but still exercise that right/freedom to believe in/on the contrary. But this contrary belief still, by its nature and function, serves to fulfill the purpose and the need to belive. And for this matter, it becomes the god that fills the vaccum where the God of the theist is held. It just shows that man cannot afford not to believe.

The atheist who belives that God does not exist believes in the existence of something else. Even believing in nothing is still believing in something as nothing is something to believe in. Again this just shows that man cannot afford not to believe.

In regard to these positions, a theist is in all respect just like an atheist. In the end, THEY BOTH MUST BELIEVE.

 

[jarofthoughts]

There are two (2) types of atheists.

1. One does not believe in God
2. Another believes that God does not exist

The atheist who does not believe in God believes in something else but still exercise that right/freedom to believe in/on the contrary. But this contrary belief still, by its nature and function, serves to fulfill the purpose and the need to belive. And for this matter, it becomes the god that fills the vaccum where the God of the theist is held. It just shows that man cannot afford not to believe.

The atheist who belives that God does not exist believes in the existence of something else. Even believing in nothing is still believing in something as nothing is something to believe in. Again this just shows that man cannot afford not to believe.

In regard to these positions, a theist is in all respect just like an atheist. In the end, THEY BOTH MUST BELIEVE.

 

[McBell]

My thoughts exactly.

 

[MissAlice]

I think atheism and I include myself in that category is just a general term for anyone who lacks a belief in a god/s. That's all. You'll find atheists are as various as religious and political belief systems.