Ask me about ancient Egypt

[Estro Felino]

Is it true that Horus and Seth represent good and evil respectively?
That is, the Kemetic religion is based upon a restless fight between these two principles?
Thank you.

 

[Tamino]

Is it true that Horus and Seth represent good and evil respectively?
That is, the Kemetic religion is based upon a restless fight between these two principles?
Thank you.

That one is an easy question. The answer is "no".
Horus and Seth do not represent good and evil, and the Kemetic religion is not centered on such a good/evil dualism.
I would say that in the Horus/Seth pair, Horus represents order, law and tradition, while Seth represents challenge, strength and liminality.

Of course, there's a more complicated answer. You might want to check the excellent introduction to the Egyptian deities on Henadology, that will give you some insight on their nature and their dualist pairing:
Horus
Seth
Antiwy (a combined form of the two)

 

[Tamino]

I am not convinced AT ALL. I quote again.
The gods are glad [when] they see Ra in his rising; his beams flood the world with light.The majesty of the god, who is to be feared, setteth forth and cometh unto the land of Manu; he maketh bright the earth at his birth each day; he cometh unto the place where he was yesterday.

Ra rising is east.
settled is setteth in his rising in the east. As one says get set go.
Comes into land of manu would be in the east.
I am not willing to take your word for manu being a mystic place of sunset. Pl give link.

I see where you are coming from, I do. The translation does allow this possibility.
Give me some time, I think it would be helpful to show the greater context of the hymn, but I will need to put that together on a separate file.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

1. Do you have a favorite Egyptologist that you would recommend?
2. What do you think of Manfred Bietak and Donald Redford?

Thanks.

 

[Estro Felino]

That one is an easy question. The answer is "no".
Horus and Seth do not represent good and evil, and the Kemetic religion is not centered on such a good/evil dualism.
I would say that in the Horus/Seth pair, Horus represents order, law and tradition, while Seth represents challenge, strength and liminality.

Of course, there's a more complicated answer. You might want to check the excellent introduction to the Egyptian deities on Henadology, that will give you some insight on their nature and their dualist pairing:
Horus
Seth
Antiwy (a combined form of the two)

Thank you.
I was influenced by this anime I loved very much as an adolescent.
It does focus on that dualism...but again, it's for kids.

 

[Tamino]

1. Do you have a favorite Egyptologist that you would recommend?

Kathleen "Kara" Cooney - she likes to challenge the establishment and question outdated models of analyzing Egyptian society and hierarchies.

1. What do you think of Manfred Bietak and Donald Redford?

Thanks.

I was lucky enough to meet Dr. Bietak in person, he's cool. He may be one of the "old white men", but his scientific methodology is solid, he has an excellent reputation in the field and he's a leading expert on Avaris, Piramesse and Egyptian relations with Crete.
I don't know Donald Redford. The Akhenaten Temple Project rings a bell, but I am not familiar with his works. His published books look interesting, though...

 

[Bear Wild]

I'm a Kemetic pagan who discovered the religion while studying Egyptology.
If you want to know anything about current developments in the field of Egyptology, ancient source texts, a specific deity... I may not be able to answer every question, but I can probably look it up or point out the relevant books and papers.
Also, if you just want something translated from or into hieroglyphs: My Middle Egyptian is pretty solid, just don't ask me about participle constructions.

I have only recently become aware of the wonderfully rich connection of the Egyptians with birds. The eagle, falcon, hawk, swan, and other birds are intimately woven in the Norse and Celtic mythology but had never considered their relationship as well as other birds such as the ibis in the Egyptian mythology. (note that what I mean by mythology is about truth about relationship and not fantasy).

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Kathleen "Kara" Cooney - she likes to challenge the establishment and question outdated models of analyzing Egyptian society and hierarchies.

Thanks. It's the first I've heard of her, but that's hardly surprising.

I like her if only because ...

1. she's a Southern California gal, and
2. "She is named after her Irish-Protestant grandmother Kathlyn Mary, who was disowned by her family for marrying Cooney’s Irish-Catholic grandfather James." [source]

May I ask what significant model(s) she challenges and whether you believe her to be substantially correct?

 

[Tamino]

I have only recently become aware of the wonderfully rich connection of the Egyptians with birds. The eagle, falcon, hawk, swan, and other birds are intimately woven in the Norse and Celtic mythology but had never considered their relationship as well as other birds such as the ibis in the Egyptian mythology. (note that what I mean by mythology is about truth about relationship and not fantasy).

True. Many people get blinded by the dazzling achievements of the Egyptian civilization - the gold, the temples, the pyramids. It was the same for me, in the beginning.

So the Egyptian culture appears quite artificial and removed from nature.

They were not.

The Egyptian religion was born from the animist practices of the pre-Dynastic period, and the entire mythology is deeply rooted in the natural cycles of the Nile Valley and in the natural world.
One of the things that are really meaningful to me: the Egyptian mindset does not have a hierarchy that places humans above animals. Both are seen as souled creatures, with their own agency. In some cases, animals can even rank higher, because they can be the living Ba of a Deity.

 

[Tamino]

May I ask what significant model(s) she challenges and whether you believe her to be substantially correct?

Feminism and Power. She says that a lot of Egyptologists and Egypt lovers like the ancient culture so much that they are reluctant to criticize it. Instead , they tend to fall for the ancient propaganda.

Two of her recent books are exemplary of this

"When Women Ruled the World" examines the great female kings of Egypt. Instead of seeing them as feminist icons and applauding the high status of Egyptian women, however, Cooney ruthlessly shows how the power of these women was still embedded in a patriarchal system. They had to use loopholes, special situations and patriarchal narratives to achieve any political power. And sometimes, they might just have been puppets and placeholders.

"The Good Kings" examines some of the great pharaohs. But instead of retelling their great achievements, she analyzes how these kings used propaganda and politics to consolidate their authoritarian rule. Her comparison of the narcissistic grandeur of Ramses II and Donald Trump especially is not flattering to either and earned her a lot of criticism.

Many peers say she's too political, and that she should keep ancient history free of politics and modern sociology. She counters by saying that ALL history is political and has a bias, and we should therefore constantly re-examine the narrative. And that the actual useful feature of studying ancient history, is to uncover parallels in today's world.

I am a fan, I got her to sign my first edition of "the Good Kings" at a conference last summer

She also has a great podcast. "Afterlives of ancient Egypt "

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

am a fan, I got her to sign my first edition of "the Good Kings" at a conference last summer

The term "gobsmacked" comes to mind.

Many peers say she's too political, and that she should keep ancient history free of politics and modern sociology. She counters by saying that ALL history is political and has a bias, ...

So, too, her critique.

 

[Tamino]

So, too, her critique.

Of course. If we can't avoid bias, we at least need to acknowledge and discuss it. Bring it out in the open, instead of pretending that our analysis can be "pure" and "objective"

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Second mention.
Budge translates:
The gods are glad [when] they see Ra in his rising; his beams flood the world with light.The majesty of the god, who is to be feared, setteth forth and cometh unto the land of Manu; he maketh bright the earth at his birth each day; he cometh unto the place where he was yesterday. O mayest thou be at peace with me;

Let me take that apart for you

wDA
Budge: "setteth forth"
TLA: "proceed, go in procession, move"

Hm nTr pn
Budge: the majesty of the god
Me: the majesty of this god

Spsi
Budge: "who must be feared"
TLA: "splendid, noble"

Xnm-n-f
Budge: "and cometh onto"
TLA: "join with"

tA n mAnw
Land of Manu

I would like to point out that the Xnm-n-f is grammatically distinct from the wDA. The -n- gives the verb a past meaning.
I would translate:
The noble majesty of this god proceeds, and has joined with the land of Manu.

We're going full circle here: the sun rises, fills everything with light, proceeds across the sky, and sets by "joining with the Western hills".
View attachment 87915

TLA has 45 mentions of Manu. The vast majority refer to the mystical place of sunset. One mention from Roman times seems to take it as a real place, and connects it to the Lybians and Phoenicians... who live to the Northwest of Egypt.
See here: mꜣnw (Lemma ID 67160)

Conclusion: Manu is neither Punt nor the Indus valley, it's a mostly mystical place of sunset, in the West.
Sorry to burst your bubble.

Tamino:

I much appreciate the effort you have put in. I have learnt about TLA which I did not know till now. So a big THANK YOU.

Now the verse is:

The gods are glad [when] they see Ra in his rising; his beams flood the world with light. The majesty of the god, who is to be feared, setteth forth and cometh unto the land of Manu; he maketh bright the earth at his birth each day; he cometh unto the place where he was yesterday.

My rendering: see Ra in his rising; his beams flood the world with light… [He] setteth [htp] forth and cometh unto the land of Manu [mnw]

Your rendering: the sun rises, fills everything with light, proceeds across the sky, and sets [htp] by "joining with the Western hills [mnw]"

Question 1. whether htp means “setting forth” or setting.



I tried working through TLA but could not succeed. Can you tell me the Egyptian words for “setteth forth and cometh.” Plain English would not translate “setting forth” that tells of activity as “setting down” as in the west. Also one does not “cometh” in the west. It would be “goeth.”



Question 2. Whether mnw means Manu or western hills.

On Manu the TLA treats it as a common noun:

Word class: common noun (masc.)

Translation

Westgebirge; Totenreich; Westen west



Whereas the text uses Manu as a proper noun.

I don’t have the capacity to unravel the TLA translations but your interpretation based on the standard TLA is not convincing for me.

Thanks

 

[Tamino]

Tamino:

I much appreciate the effort you have put in. I have learnt about TLA which I did not know till now. So a big THANK YOU.

Happy to help!

Now the verse is:

The gods are glad [when] they see Ra in his rising; his beams flood the world with light. The majesty of the god, who is to be feared, setteth forth and cometh unto the land of Manu; he maketh bright the earth at his birth each day; he cometh unto the place where he was yesterday.

My rendering: see Ra in his rising; his beams flood the world with light… [He] setteth [htp] forth and cometh unto the land of Manu [mnw]

Your rendering: the sun rises, fills everything with light, proceeds across the sky, and sets [htp] by "joining with the Western hills [mnw]"

Question 1. whether htp means “setting forth” or setting.

Set forth in this sentence is wDA. Htp does not occur

I tried working through TLA but could not succeed. Can you tell me the Egyptian words for “setteth forth and cometh.” Plain English would not translate “setting forth” that tells of activity as “setting down” as in the west. Also one does not “cometh” in the west. It would be “goeth.

The Egyptian sentence is like this, word by word:
wDA(set forth, proceed) Hm(majesty) nTr(god) pn(this) Sps(noble)
Xnm-n(joined)-f(he) tA(Land) n(of) mAnw(Manu)

Question 2. Whether mnw means Manu or western hills.

On Manu the TLA treats it as a common noun:

Word class: common noun (masc.)

Translation

Westgebirge; Totenreich; Westen west



Whereas the text uses Manu as a proper noun.

Truth is: we don't know.

In English, we can distinguish a proper name and a common noun by the use of the article.
We drove to the city
versus
We drove to London

Unfortunately, religious texts are usually rendered in classic Middle Egyptian, which does not use articles at all. (Late Egyptian does, btw.) There's the demonstrative pn/tn (compare "this god")

All of the known occurrences work both ways. mAnw might be the proper name of a place, or it might just mean "western hills" as a common noun.

I don’t have the capacity to unravel the TLA translations but your interpretation based on the standard TLA is not convincing for me.

I went a little bit overboard and I 'm doing a structural and content analysis of the entire hymn... But I am only half way through . I hope that looking at the poetic structure will clarify how the entire text just describes the sun's journey across the sky, and no actual travels to distant lands fit into the context. I will post it on a separate thread when I'm done

 

[Tamino]

Let me also present this example.
It's from a hymn found in TT436, from a slightly later era than Ani. But a similar context and topic.

This hymn contains the following phrase:

"Praise to you, Ra,
child in Bakhu,
who removes the darkness
Old man in front of Manu
Who lights up the two lands with his pupil"

You see how we get the idea to associate Bakhu with east and Manu with West, right?



Full citation of the source:
Adelheid Burkhardt, with contributions by Altägyptisches Wörterbuch, Doris Topmann, Anja Weber, Sentences of text "T 44: Hymnus an den Sonnengott" (Text ID OPO3XA72YJEGLOZB36LUTYNBSQ) <Text Sentences>, in: Thesaurus Linguae Aegyptiae, Corpus issue 18, Web app version 2.1.2, 11/24/2023, ed. by Tonio Sebastian Richter & Daniel A. Werning on behalf of the Berlin-Brandenburgische Akademie der Wissenschaften and Hans-Werner Fischer-Elfert & Peter Dils on behalf of the Sächsische Akademie der Wissenschaften zu Leipzig (accessed: 2/9/2024)

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

"Praise to you, Ra,
child in Bakhu,
who removes the darkness
Old man in front of Manu
Who lights up the two lands with his pupil

Both appear to be in the east. Ra is the sun, manu receives sunlight. No east or west.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Please do send your work or the link at BHARATJJ@

Happy to help!


Set forth in this sentence is wDA. Htp does not occur


The Egyptian sentence is like this, word by word:
wDA(set forth, proceed) Hm(majesty) nTr(god) pn(this) Sps(noble)
Xnm-n(joined)-f(he) tA(Land) n(of) mAnw(Manu)

Truth is: we don't know.

In English, we can distinguish a proper name and a common noun by the use of the article.
We drove to the city
versus
We drove to London

Unfortunately, religious texts are usually rendered in classic Middle Egyptian, which does not use articles at all. (Late Egyptian does, btw.) There's the demonstrative pn/tn (compare "this god")

All of the known occurrences work both ways. mAnw might be the proper name of a place, or it might just mean "western hills" as a common noun.


I went a little bit overboard and I 'm doing a structural and content analysis of the entire hymn... But I am only half way through . I hope that looking at the poetic structure will clarify how the entire text just describes the sun's journey across the sky, and no actual travels to distant lands fit into the context. I will post it on a separate thread when I'm done

Pl do send your work at [email protected]. I may miss it here. Thx

 

[Tamino]

Both appear to be in the east. Ra is the sun, manu receives sunlight. No east or west.

Did you notice how Ra is a child in one, and an old man in the other line? The sun god as an old man is his evening form. When he is in the West.
And how can he illuminate "the two lands" (Egypt) when he is in India???

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Direct evidence of Manu with sun rising is stronger, I think.
He does not illuminate Egypt. He illuminates the earth.

 

[Tamino]

Direct evidence of Manu with sun rising is stronger, I think.
He does not illuminate Egypt. He illuminates the earth.

It says "tawy" -the two lands. That's literally the most common word with which the Egyptians referred to their own country.
Also, you are still ignoring that the sun god in his form of an "old man" represents the evening sun.
And have you considered my points about the phonetics above? There's absolutely no certainty that the Egyptian word was even pronounced anything close to "mah-noo"