Bishka
Veteran Member
This is the third in a part of "Ask a Mormon Series" Part Two (Found here) is getting to be over 70 pages, so I thought I would start a new one.
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
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Ask a Mormon! (Part Three)
- Thread starter Bishka
- Start date
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
Just reposting my question from the end of the last thread.
[B said:
How does this passage fit in with your concept of Jesus being the willing sacrifice, volunteering before the world began to descend to Earth and purify man through his death?
He seems to be scared, worried, even unwilling to go through with it here. What is your take on this?
djackson
Member
Speaking as an ex?Mormon (voluntarily not going, don't agree, etc., but raised very devoutly).
While Jesus was blessed with the holy spirit, giving him most if not all the knowledge of what he had in heaven, he knew the task set before was not going to be easy. He was human, he had to be like us to take on all the pains of humanity, experience it all so he could fully understand and be able to forgive our transgressions facing those same fears. Even while crucified right before his death, he cried out to his father, "Why have you forsaken me?" The last doubt before his physical form passed.
My personal take on this is very non-Mormon, even non-Christian. Jesus was a man, a very enlightened one, but just a man. He can and should be counted with all the great prophets, but was he god's literal son, our savior? Enlightened, yes, perhaps even ascended to a higher plane. But I believe his fear and doubt is what we all face in a spiritual search, especially when faced with the end of life. Do we really have that answer at the very end? Have I lived my life the 'right' way? Is there something else, a reward, a punishment after this?
The way we answer those questions, and the way we live by them is what it's all about. To find those answers, to live by them should be everyone's search, an honest soul-searching quest, not just blithely sitting in a pew having the basic program spoon-fed to us. It should be more of a zen thing, more of what and who we are, not what we are told.
Jesus knew this, whether he was god's son or not. We are all children of god, we all have god within us. The question should be, do we "want to believe",... or do we "know".
While Jesus was blessed with the holy spirit, giving him most if not all the knowledge of what he had in heaven, he knew the task set before was not going to be easy. He was human, he had to be like us to take on all the pains of humanity, experience it all so he could fully understand and be able to forgive our transgressions facing those same fears. Even while crucified right before his death, he cried out to his father, "Why have you forsaken me?" The last doubt before his physical form passed.
My personal take on this is very non-Mormon, even non-Christian. Jesus was a man, a very enlightened one, but just a man. He can and should be counted with all the great prophets, but was he god's literal son, our savior? Enlightened, yes, perhaps even ascended to a higher plane. But I believe his fear and doubt is what we all face in a spiritual search, especially when faced with the end of life. Do we really have that answer at the very end? Have I lived my life the 'right' way? Is there something else, a reward, a punishment after this?
The way we answer those questions, and the way we live by them is what it's all about. To find those answers, to live by them should be everyone's search, an honest soul-searching quest, not just blithely sitting in a pew having the basic program spoon-fed to us. It should be more of a zen thing, more of what and who we are, not what we are told.
Jesus knew this, whether he was god's son or not. We are all children of god, we all have god within us. The question should be, do we "want to believe",... or do we "know".
Polaris
Active Member
I think he knew what he was about to do would be very difficult. As djackson said, he experienced the same human emotions, anxieties, temptations, etc, that we all face. The difference is that he always overcame them. In the end he knew that the sacrifice had to be made and that he was the one who had to make it.
PHOTOTAKER
Well-Known Member
Just reposting my question from the end of the last thread.
How does this passage fit in with your concept of Jesus being the willing sacrifice, volunteering before the world began to descend to Earth and purify man through his death?
He seems to be scared, worried, even unwilling to go through with it here. What is your take on this?
well Jesus the Christ was the sacrafice that was needed to fullfil the prophetcies... no matter what you argue it comes down to the wall of faith; which is the knowlage of things that cannot be seen... Jesus still had a choice he could of eather said enuff is enuff or ask his father to sustain him though the difficulty of life, like all of us we too can ask our father in heaven for the stranth that we need. right up to the end Jesus was being the perfect example... however i belive that if we will return to God we were once there, therefor if we can in fact return to the father in heaven there would be need a plain for us to return and that is though Jesus the Christ...
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I think He was scared, but not unwilling. He didn't do anything other than ask His Father if there was another means by which the Atonement might be accomplished. To me, one of the most important things this scripture teaches is that the Father and the Son are distinct from one another. We have two "wills," each independent of the other. A single substance could not possibly have two wills. A Father and a Son, each with a will of His own, though, could. It also shows that, even in the most extreme situations, Christ consistantly assumed a subordinate role to His Father. He had done so pre-mortally, He did so during His mortality, and I would do so even after His Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven. Therefore, the notion that the two are "co-equal" is shown to be false.Just reposting my question from the end of the last thread.
How does this passage fit in with your concept of Jesus being the willing sacrifice, volunteering before the world began to descend to Earth and purify man through his death?
He seems to be scared, worried, even unwilling to go through with it here. What is your take on this?
Dream Angel
Well-Known Member
I dont know about you guys, but I know a lot of people who dont know what "LDS" is if you say it to them! Yet as soon as you say mormon... its "ahhhh!!!!! of course!" - Anyone else get this?
silvermoon383
Well-Known Member
Dream Angel
Well-Known Member
Was it a good conversation or bad conversation?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Here's a story that will make you laugh. Several years ago, following a series of toronados in the midwestern United States, the Church sent volunteers to assist the thousands of displaced families who had lost pretty much everything they had. A newspaper reporter, describing their service, noted that two churches had been of tremendous assistance to the people of the area: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Mormon Church. True story.
Dream Angel
Well-Known Member
Here's a story that will make you laugh. Several years ago, following a series of toronados in the midwestern United States, the Church sent volunteers to assist the thousands of displaced families who had lost pretty much everything they had. A newspaper reporter, describing their service, noted that two churches had been of tremendous assistance to the people of the area: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Mormon Church. True story.
HAHAHAHAHA!!! Thats newspapers for you!
athanasius
Well-Known Member
Do mormons believe that Jesus Christ was married and had children? I heard one Mormon guy on tv(From Salt Lake City) say that he did. If so, this is strange to my understanding and where would you go for this information. Thank you and God bless you,
Athanasius
Athanasius
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
The Church has no official doctrine regarding the marital status of Jesus Christ. I have seen arguments presented (mostly by non-LDS scholars) which suggest that He may have been. The bottom line is that we don't know. Apparently it is not important enough to our salvation for God to have revealed it to our Prophets.
SoyLeche
meh...
Most of us are open to the idea, and think that it is likely that he was married. FFH isn't among that group though
We don't have anywhere that we "went" for that information. It's merely speculation - but, to me at least, it seems logical (30 yr old Jewish guy at a time when it was expected for a 30 yr old Jewish guy to be married, especially if he were a teacher, without any explanation as to why he wasn't married; we believe that "exaltation" requires marriage, and i have no doubt that Christ is "exalted"; etc). It wouldn't bother me to find out that he either definitely was or definitely wasn't though.
This was the thread that never died on the subject: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29819
athanasius
Well-Known Member
Most of us are open to the idea, and think that it is likely that he was married. FFH isn't among that group though
We don't have anywhere that we "went" for that information. It's merely speculation - but, to me at least, it seems logical (30 yr old Jewish guy at a time when it was expected for a 30 yr old Jewish guy to be married, especially if he were a teacher, without any explanation as to why he wasn't married; we believe that "exaltation" requires marriage, and i have no doubt that Christ is "exalted"; etc). It wouldn't bother me to find out that he either definitely was or definitely wasn't though.
This was the thread that never died on the subject: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29819
very interesting thank you.
And God bless.athanasius
Well-Known Member
athanasius
Well-Known Member
I have heard of marriage sealings in the temple, are these true? Is it in mormons theology that a marriage can be eternally sealed in heaven? Or what is the understadning of this? Just curious? If so then what do you do with Marks Gospel hwere Jesus says that nonone is married in heaven(MK 12:25)? I am not trying to debate, Im just trying to undertstand. I hope I have not offended anyone asking this. If this is just a rumor then I am sorry. I do not wish to believe false rumors about your theology. I appreciate the mormon Churches love for Jesus and desire to get at truth. Thank you and God bless you
SoyLeche
meh...
This might help: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132 Specifically verses 15 - 20.
Short answer: Marriage is something that has to happen here. We do perform "proxy" sealings, just like we do proxy baptisms - but the ceremony has to take place here. Why? I have no idea
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
This is a copy of a post I wrote a long time ago. It's kind of long, but if you care to plow through it, it may shed some light on this issue.
This passage you are referring to in Mark is also discussed in both Matthew and Luke. Unless I am mistaken, John is the only gospel writer who does not include it in his account. I believe that these verses are among the most universally misunderstood of any in the New Testament. At first glance, they do appear to be saying that marriage does not survive the grave. But for those willing to look a little deeper, there are some significant clues which imply that the truth is a bit more involved. I’ll cover some of these points in this post. First, here are Mark’s and Luke’s words.
Mark 12:18-25 “Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife. And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.”
Luke 20:27-36: “Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife. And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”
I would also post the entire text of John 17, because I believe it to be important to an accurate understanding of these passages on marriage, but that would make what will already be a pretty long post even longer. You may, however, wish to review that chapter yourself. Anyway, here are my thoughts on the subject:
1. We need, as always, to be aware of who Jesus’ audience was. In this instance, He was speaking to the Sadducees. What do we know about the Sadducees? First of all, they didn’t believe in a resurrection at all. In asking a question of this sort, do you honestly think they were looking for the truth? Or do you think that, as on many other occasions, they were simply trying to stump Jesus by asking a question that would cause Him to have to contradict something He’d previously taught. It’s entirely logical to assume that Jesus, knowing their hearts as perfectly as He did, would have given them an answer that, while entirely honest, would pertain to them specifically. In teaching a truly receptive audience, His answer would likely have been expressed somewhat differently.
2. John 17 (which I referred to earlier) makes frequent use of the phrases “of the world” and “not of the world.” These phrases are, in fact, used so many times that it’s almost impossible to brush them off as inconsequential. In the prayer recorded in this chapter, Jesus made a clear distinction between His followers, in other words, those individuals who, like Him, were “not of this world,” and those who rejected Him, thereby falling into the group who were “of the world.” In Luke’s account of this event, Jesus once again uses the phrase, “of the world.” Jesus was telling the Sadducees, who were obviously “children of the world” what they could expect in the next life. Because they were not His followers, they would not receive the blessings of eternal marriage, but would instead be as angels. Jesus did not explain to them the blessings that the children “not of this world” would receive. Why should He have done? They would have believed Him to exactly the same extent that they believed they would be resurrected.
3. Looking at Mark’s account, we see another important indication of what Jesus really meant. Here, Jesus is recorded as having said, “Ye know not the power of God.” What on earth could He have meant by that? The power of God to do what – un-marry someone? In the context of His statement, He could only have meant that the Sadducees did not understand that God has the power to unite a husband and wife forever. Without such power, death would certainly end the marriage covenant, but with it, the covenant is eternal. Jesus gave Peter the keys to bind in heaven that which he would bind on earth. Having that authority, he would be able to exercise the power of God to make the marriage relationship endure. We know from the Old Testament that “whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever.” When Peter received the keys to the kingdom of God, he received the power of God to do something that would have eternal significance.
4. Finally, it is significant that Jesus never did say that no one would be married in Heaven. He merely said that no one would get married in Heaven. There is a difference between these two things. The Greek word translated as “marry” is “gamosin,” the third-person form of the verb “gameo,” which means “to enter into the marriage state or to get married.” The term “gamizonai” (“giving in marriage”
is another way of saying the same thing. But, He never used the word, “gemesas,” (as is found in 1 Corinthians 7:33) to describe “a married person.” He never said that there will be no married individuals in Heaven; He only said that marriages won’t be performed there. And I believe this to be the case.