Argument for living prophets in the LDS Church

[cardero]

From Post #113

Starfish writes: Just curious . . . how accessable are these men to the people of their faith? How much to Catholics get to hear from the Pope, for example?

I really have no idea.

Thanks.

From my experience, requesting an audience with LDS prophets is just as difficult.

 

[cardero]

I'm enjoying this thread, but it's hard to keep up. I'm going to bed as it's 1:51am where I am. I will be back, but probably not until tomorrow night.

What I am finding difficult to understand about these conversations is:
If eveyone can have their own personal, truthful, communicative relationship with GOD, and if GOD does not require humans to be in service to Him and if it is unnecessary for one to belong to a religious organization to be an honest, sincere, good and loving towards their fellow humans, what is the purpose or need of churches or prophets?

 

[cardero]

Exactly. people become impatient but if they know a prophet to be a true prophet of God, why the hurry?

They do not know if a prophet is true (in some cases either does the prophet) which is probably why they are perscribed to practice faith. When an organization does not move their beliefs but instead holds onto faith, a religious person can quickly become not impatient, but fatigued.

 

[Mister Emu]

if GOD does not require humans to be in service to Him

I would disagree with this if and...

good

this...

what is the purpose or need of churches or prophets?

Churches serve as a community, support, love, and an institution to preserve the "truth". Prophets serve when the people, as a whole, are not listening to God.

 

[Popeyesays]

What I am finding difficult to understand about these conversations is:
If eveyone can have their own personal, truthful, communicative relationship with GOD, and if GOD does not require humans to be in service to Him and if it is unnecessary for one to belong to a religious organization to be an honest, sincere, good and loving towards their fellow humans, what is the purpose or need of churches or prophets?

Too many conditional statements are required to get to your pointm while I see merit in the third "if", I dismiss the irst two.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Starfish]

From Post #113

From my experience, requesting an audience with LDS prophets is just as difficult.

Of course, for obvious practical reasons. However, we get to read his words every month in our monthly publication, the Ensign. Plus there's lds.org. And twice a year we hear from him 3-4 times as he talks to us in General Conference. This is in addition to the exposure we get to the apostles.

How often do the people of the Dalai Lama (hope I spelled that correctly), get to hear from him? . . . . Hey, I see he has a website. Good. This is all interesting.

But anyway, our prophet is as accessable to us as possible.

 

[Starfish]

A few pages ago, we were talking about how impressive the prophet and apostles are when you meet with them. They are men, with all the usual mortal imperfections, but they are so inspiring. Perfect? No, only Christ was perfect. But they are so good. My husband and I were talking about this, and he said many people probably don't realize, or believe, that people like this actually exist.

Well, they do.

 

[madhatter85]

They do not know if a prophet is true (in some cases either does the prophet) which is probably why they are perscribed to practice faith. When an organization does not move their beliefs but instead holds onto faith, a religious person can quickly become not impatient, but fatigued.

But it has happened. there is a clear pattern especially in the Bible of a prophet rising up, people believe and then peopel reject, then fall into apostasy before the next dispensation.

 

[madhatter85]

A few pages ago, we were talking about how impressive the prophet and apostles are when you meet with them. They are men, with all the usual mortal imperfections, but they are so inspiring. Perfect? No, only Christ was perfect. But they are so good. My husband and I were talking about this, and he said many people probably don't realize, or believe, that people like this actually exist.

Well, they do.

Exactly, alot of people don't believe people like that exists because they themselves do not even attempt to be like that.

Most people who do not trust others, are usually that way because they themselves are not trustworthy.

 

[Sententia]

Whoops - I think I mis-remembered the numbers of the options.

I was talking to a friend on how we were given only three options as if no other options can exist and he brought to my attention the 3 degrees of excitement in relation to belief by Percy Bysshe Shelley in the 1800s. Its old so you might have to push through the language but here is the condensed Neccesity of Atheism.. I think its pretty relavant and quite an interesting argument.

A CLOSE examination of the validity of the proofs adduced to support any proposition, has ever been allowed to be the only sure way of attaining truth, upon the advantages of which it is unnecessary to descant; our knowledge of the existence of a Deity is a subject of such importance, that it cannot be too minutely investigated; in consequence of this conviction, we proceed briefly and impartially to examine the proofs which have been adduced. It is necessary first to consider the nature of Belief.

When a proposition is offered to the mind, it perceives the agreement or disagreement of the ideas of which it is composed. A perception of their agreement is termed belief, many obstacles frequently prevent this perception from being immediate, these the mind attempts to remove in order that the perception may be distinct. The mind is active in the investigation, in order to perfect the state of perception which is passive; the investigation being confused with the perception has induced many falsely to imagine that the mind is active in belief, that belief is an act of volition, in consequence of which it may be regulated by the mind; pursuing, continuing this mistake they have attached a degree of criminality to disbelief of which in its nature it is incapable; it is equally so of merit.

The strength of belief like that of every other passion is in proportion to the degrees of excitement.

The degrees of excitement are three.

The senses are the sources of all knowledge to the mind, consequently their evidence claims the strongest assent.

The decision of the mind founded upon our own experience derived from these sources, claims the next degree.

The experience of others which addresses itself to the former one, occupies the lowest degree,--

Consequently no testimony can be admitted which is contrary to reason, reason is founded on the evidence of our senses.

Every proof may be referred to one of these three divisions; we are naturally led to consider what arguments we receive from each of them to convince us of the existence of a Deity.


1st. The evidence of the senses.--If the Deity should appear to us, if he should convince our senses of his existence; this revelation would necessarily command belief;--Those to whom the Deity has thus appeared, have the strongest possible conviction of his existence.

Reason claims the 2nd. place, it is urged that man knows that whatever is, must either have had a beginning or existed from all eternity, he also knows that whatever is not eternal must have had a cause.--Where this is applied to the existence of the universe, it is necessary to prove that it was created, until that is clearly demonstrated, we may reasonably suppose that it has endured from all eternity.--In a case where two propositions are diametrically opposite, the mind believes that which is less incomprehensible, it is easier to suppose that the Universe has existed from all eternity, than to conceive a being capable of creating it; if the mind sinks beneath the weight of one, is it an alleviation to increase the intolerability of the burden?--The other argument which is founded upon a man's knowledge of his own existence stands thus.---A man knows not only he now is, but that there was a time when he did not exist, consequently there must have been a cause.--But what does this prove? we can only infer from effects causes exactly adequate to those effects;---But there certainly is a generative power which is effected by particular instruments; we cannot prove that it is inherent in these instruments, nor is the contrary hypothesis capable of demonstration; we admit that the generative power is incomprehensible, but to suppose that the same effect is produced by an eternal, omniscient Almighty Being, leaves the cause in the same obscurity, but renders it more incomprehensible.

The 3rd. and last degree of assent is claimed by Testimony---it is required that it should not be contrary to reason.---The testimony that the Deity convinces the senses of men of his existence can only be admitted by us, if our mind considers it less probable that these men should have been deceived, then that the Deity should have appeared to them---our reason can never admit the testimony of men, who not only declare that they were eye- witnesses of miracles but that the Deity was irrational, for he commanded that he should be believed, he proposed the highest rewards for faith, eternal punishments for disbelief---we can only command voluntary actions, belief is not an act of volition, the mind is even passive, from this it is evident that we have not sufficient testimony, or rather that testimony is insufficient to prove the being of a God, we have before shewn that it cannot be deduced from reason,---they who have been convinced by the evidence of the senses, they only can believe it.

From this it is evident that having no proofs from any of the three sources of conviction: the mind cannot believe the existence of a God, it is also evident that as belief is a passion of the mind, no degree of criminality can be attached to disbelief, they only are reprehensible who willingly neglect to remove the false medium thro' which their mind views the subject.

It is almost unnecessary to observe, that the general knowledge of the deficiency of such proof, cannot be prejudicial to society: Truth has always been found to promote the best interests of mankind.---Every reflecting mind must allow that there is no proof of the existence of a Deity. Q.E.D.

 

[Katzpur]

What I am finding difficult to understand about these conversations is:
If eveyone can have their own personal, truthful, communicative relationship with GOD, and if GOD does not require humans to be in service to Him and if it is unnecessary for one to belong to a religious organization to be an honest, sincere, good and loving towards their fellow humans, what is the purpose or need of churches or prophets?

Jesus Christ established a Church as part of His ministry. He built it on a foundation of Prophets and Apostles, He being the "chief cornerstone."

Paul speaks of the organization of this Church in Ephesians 4:11-14, where he says, "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..."

If I were to try to explain in modern English what Paul was saying, I would say this:

And He (Jesus Christ) appointed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. His purpose in doing so was to perfect His followers, to minister to them and to teach them. These were to remain in place until all of us are unified in the faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God, enabling us to grow to maturity in the Lord. Otherwise, we will continue to be like children in the gospel, persuaded first one way and then another, and unable to distinguish between true and false doctrines, being subject to the teachings of those who are crafty and who desire to deceive us.

Since we have not yet become unified in our faith and knowledge of Christ and have not yet, as a body of believers, become spiritually mature, the need for prophets and apostles still exists.