Are we the only ones?

[Unveiled Artist]

Forgive me if Im asking or saying this wrong. I dont want a debate over clarification and Ps and Qs.

I wonder if "some" western religious (christianity is an eastern religion so Im looking at worldviews on both sides of the globe) are the only ones who see "magic" or supernatual separate from the natual world while those of us 90% of the world see the whole view without differientiating between supernatual and natual. There is no dividing line.

I wonder if our ten percent are the ones influencing others to believe there is no supernatual but if there were no skeptics, wed not question the difference between blessing ones food or wishing someone good luck on the game.

Understand?

 

[crossfire]

There are Metaphysical Idealists in both Eastern and Western thought, if that is what you are after.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There are Metaphysical Idealists in both Eastern and Western thought, if that is what you are after.

I had to read this again. No. More if 90 percent of the world dont see the supernatual as part of life regardless if they separate it from the natual or combine it, and 10 percent are saying there is no such thing, why would those ten percent believe there is no supernatual if half may not have experienced it like the 90 of the world has to one degree or another?

 

[Laika]

I had to read this again. No. More if 90 percent of the world dont see the supernatual as part of life regardless if they separate it from the natual or combine it, and 10 percent are saying there is no such thing, why would those ten percent believe there is no supernatual if half may not have experienced it like the 90 of the world has to one degree or another?

I'm not 100% clear on what your asking but if you are asking why a group of sceptics/atheists reject the existece of the supernatural, it is largely because of the acceptence of philosophical materialism in treating all phenomenoa as physical or natural. Depending on your view, it is considered dogmatic or an "ideological" view of the world in which reality is subject to multiple interpretation (and materialists would go so far as to assert they are the scientific/correct one).

What I think you're getting at is there is a sort of spectrum. Materialists believe that there exists one substance, which is "matter" and therefore are substance monists who treat everything as obeying the same laws as those governing physical phenemeona. On the otherside of the spectrum you have "idealists" who think only consciousness is real and treat matter as a product of consciousness (and so are also monists). Christianity falls in the middle as a form of dualism in which matter and consciousness are treated as two seperate entities or realms of existence.

But I'm sort of guessing here.

 

[wizanda]

why would those ten percent believe there is no supernatual if half may not have experienced it like the 90 of the world has to one degree or another?

Because Christianity, Islam haven't been only 10%; by force they killed all the witches, American Indians, African shamans....in Tibet the Buddhist destroyed the original Shamanic religion (Bön).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm not 100% clear on what your asking but if you are asking why a group of sceptics/atheists reject the existece of the supernatural, it is largely because of the acceptence of philosophical materialism in treating all phenomenoa as physical or natural. Depending on your view, it is considered dogmatic or an "ideological" view of the world in which reality is subject to multiple interpretation (and materialists would go so far as to assert they are the scientific/correct one).

What I think you're getting at is there is a sort of spectrum. Materialists believe that there exists one substance, which is "matter" and therefore are substance monists who treat everything as obeying the same laws as those governing physical phenemeona. On the otherside of the spectrum you have "idealists" who think only consciousness is real and treat matter as a product of consciousness (and so are also monists). Christianity falls in the middle as a form of dualism in which matter and consciousness are treated as two seperate entities or realms of existence.

But I'm sort of guessing here.

Kinda. I mistyped dont* to be do.

If more than half the people in the world seen or experience the supernatual in one form or another, why or how can the rest of the world influence us that the supernatualndoesnt exist?

I know truth doesnt lie in numbers; and it makes me think if most cultures have experienced it, maybe we Do see the truth and that small amount does not. (Drawing from it)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Because Christianity, Islam haven't been only 10%; by force they killed all the witches, American Indians, African shamans....in Tibet the Buddhist destroyed the original Shamanic religion (Bön).

I think you missed the question. This doesnt relate at all. I clarified it for Laika in post #6.

If majority of the world seen or experience supernatual in one way or another, why do people who dont believe in it have any influence of having the truth when they could be missing the boat?

 

[crossfire]

I think you missed the question. This doesnt relate at all. I clarified it for Laika in post #6.

If majority of the world seen or experience supernatual in one way or another, why do people who dont believe in it have any influence of having the truth when they could be missing the boat?

[satire] Why should any of the round-earthers have anything to say about the truth? After all, everyone knows that the Earth is flat... [/satire]

 

[allfoak]

@Carlita
Many people get ridiculed here on this message board for their "supernatural" beliefs.
"Where is the evidence" is the cry.

Many do not know how to back up their beliefs so they become easy targets for ridicule.
This is how the 10% keep the 90% quiet.

 

[Windwalker]

If more than half the people in the world seen or experience the supernatual in one form or another, why or how can the rest of the world influence us that the supernatualndoesnt exist?

I know truth doesnt lie in numbers; and it makes me think if most cultures have experienced it, maybe we Do see the truth and that small amount does not. (Drawing from it)

There are some flaws in this line of reasoning, as was pointed out by someone mentioning how a minority of people who say the earth is round could be influential over a majority who see it as flat. Being in the majority number of a prevailing belief doesn't make the belief necessarily valid. Think of those who reject evolution because they can't reconcile it with their ideas of a 6 day creation as they read it in the Bible. Are they correct about our origins from a scientific point of view?

I think there is also a misunderstanding of what is called supernatural. I don't think that magical explanations carry weight in a modern rational world. But I also don't think scientific materialism carries much weight in a postmodern, and post-postmodern world either. I don't see prerational magic and myth has the legs to carry the day in a modern world, and I don't think rationalistic scientific materialism has the legs to go the distance into the future either.

How do these things that are in the minority influence the majority? That's just simply part of natural growth hierarchies. More highly ordered and sophisticated systems bring lesser ordered components into higher orders in what is recognized as a downward causation. Think of it in terms of mental events causing physical events. There's vastly far more physical events then mental events on this planet, but look at how much the minority mental world has and is affecting the material world.

 

[wizanda]

I think you missed the question.

Think you generally misunderstand the answers.

If majority of the world seen or experience supernatual in one way or another, why do people who dont believe in it have any influence of having the truth

Because certain religions have had more force at removing all traces of the supernatural beliefs throughout history....

Therefore our modern western society is based on that skepticism that comes from the main religions; not on what fringe minorities accept.

If more than half the people in the world seen or experience the supernatual in one form or another, why or how can the rest of the world influence us that the supernatualndoesnt exist?

Because of my original answer....

Because in the past we burned witches, and anyone who believed in the supernatural, it is seen as something that was condemnable in Christian/Islamic countries...

So there isn't half the people who believe it in western countries, the places that haven't been as badly affected by Abrahamic fundamentalism, still continue supernatural beliefs.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

100 years ago Virtually everyone in the west believed in God, the spirit world, magic and the occult. they saw the spirit world as an extension of the physical world.
It is impossible to define the supernatural with out referring to what constitutes the natural world.

The advance in Science has, for a growing number of people, moved many things between the two concepts, and has changed their meaning to ... the scientifically understood and tangible.... compared to the intangible world of magic and religion.

However I would tend to affirm that there never were two worlds. and that the divide between the tangible and spiritual worlds as personal ... and is, wherever you chose to draw the line.

I believe in God ..I do not believe in Magic... However some things certainly are unexplainable.
Science is in the bushiness of providing explanations. Where it fails, some people give this as proof of spirit world or magic. others accept that we do not yet understand everything, but do not feel the need to make categorical decisions. as to a particular classification.

What we know as God may one day be understood in scientific terms, but it could be equally, still be God.

 

[Windwalker]

Because certain religions have had more force at removing all traces of the supernatural beliefs throughout history....

I can't really think of any religions that remove supernatural beliefs, other than maybe Theravada Buddhism. Christianity certainly has a motherload of supernatural beliefs; virgin birth, parting the Red Sea, walking on water, resurrection of the dead, and so on and so forth.

Therefore our modern western society is based on that skepticism that comes from the main religions; not on what fringe minorities accept.

That's actually very untrue. The Western Enlightenment, which is where the birth of modern science really took flight only because it rejected the Church's control of it. In the 1700's there was a split away from the mythic systems of the Church, which led to the modern dissociation between science and religion. Prior to that the sciences were very much tied to the supernatural mythic belief systems of the Church.

Because in the past we burned witches, and anyone who believed in the supernatural, it is seen as something that was condemnable in Christian/Islamic countries...

I think you are mistaking "supernatural" beliefs with mythic versus magic systems. Both have supernatural beliefs core to them, obviously. But what is different was the approach to the supernatural. It's important to be specific.

In reality though, modern scientific materialism is doing the same thing to mythic religion, as mythic religions did to magic religions. Each newer order system wants to dominate its predecessor. It wants to be the main belief. None of this has to do with beliefs in the supernatural. It has to do with the rise of newer systems of order wanting to take over.

So there isn't half the people who believe it in western countries, the places that haven't been as badly affected by Abrahamic fundamentalism, still continue supernatural beliefs.

Abrahamic fundamentalists are actually far closer to the magic systems in their beliefs in the supernatural. They just believe their deity does it for them, rather than them doing it themselves. "I plead the blood of Jesus upon you", cries the fundamentalist Christian seeking to cast out bad spirits. That's clearly magical incantations to bring about supernatural interventions. Right?

 

[Windwalker]

What we know as God may one day be understood in scientific terms, but it could be equally, still be God.

Only if science opens itself again to the exploration of the contemplative sciences. But even then, science is about categorizing and defining objects and wrapping explanations around them. To understand God in scientific terms we have to make God an object, which splits God away from the subject doing the observing. At that moment, it's not God any more but some "thing" like a Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster. It's not God at that point, as God is the scientist himself trying to find himself in a test tube.

 

[crossfire]

I can't really think of any religions that remove supernatural beliefs, other than maybe Theravada Buddhism. Christianity certainly has a motherload of supernatural beliefs; virgin birth, parting the Red Sea, walking on water, resurrection of the dead, and so on and so forth.

Even Theravada has a large number of Pali Suttas describing Buddha's interaction with the Devas. Thousands of Devas were reported to have attended a Q & A session between Buddha and his son Rahula. Sakka, King of the Devas, was said to be an ardent student of Buddha as well as a great friend who cared for Buddha when he was ill.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Your original answer did not make sense to what I ask.

Think you generally misunderstand the answers.

Most of the time, I dont. Off and online. I stoped blaming myself after 20 years.

Because certain religions have had more force at removing all traces of the supernatural beliefs throughout history....

Therefore our modern western society is based on that skepticism that comes from the main religions; not on what fringe minorities accept.

Which is sad and makes more sense to my OP. I wonder if going back, we would appreciate life more.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

[satire] Why should any of the round-earthers have anything to say about the truth? After all, everyone knows that the Earth is flat... [/satire]

I dont compare spirituality with knowledge of whether or not the world is flat. Supernatual exist outside our scientific advances.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Carlita
Many people get ridiculed here on this message board for their "supernatural" beliefs.
"Where is the evidence" is the cry.

Many do not know how to back up their beliefs so they become easy targets for ridicule.
This is how the 10% keep the 90% quiet.

Gosh. Thats sad. Thank you for understanding my question. Its probably why there is a flare up in believers of various religous because the skeptic worldview is "taking over" other peoples' religious outlook. Almost like saying "because the world isnt flat, we dismiss the validity of all flat-world believers" not thinking that our beliefs arent mere unvalidated claims unproved by science.

 

[crossfire]

I dont compare spirituality with knowledge of whether or not the world is flat. Supernatual exist outside our scientific advances.

I'm confused. I thought you said you make no distinctions?

 

[First Baseman]

Supernatual exist outside our scientific advances.

Well said.