Are taxes too high?

[sun rise]

Since the government is not chasing widows and children for taxes owed, I guess we're far from the dire situation that Roman citizens were in back in the day.

While we're at it, since this is a debate section, what's your attitude toward taxes outside of, of course, complaining they're too high. What should taxes pay for etc. Are you looking for convenient barbarians to join?

High taxes were always a problem in the Roman Empire, so what’s new?

ZOSIMUS, A LATE 5TH CENTURY WRITER TELLS US “AS A RESULT OF THIS EXACTION OF TAXES, CITY AND COUNTRYSIDE WERE FULL OF LAMENTS AND COMPLAINTS, AND ALL… SOUGHT THE HELP OF THE BARBARIANS.”


Many Roman peasants even fought alongside their invaders when they laid waste to the empire in the 3rd and 4th century. This was the case when Balkan miners defected to the Visigoths en masse in 378. Others simply vacated the Empire altogether to avoid the crippling tax rates along with the debasing of the sliver currency which was devastating for the Empires economy.


In fact, by the end of the 3rd century, the situation had become so dire that Emperor Diocletian had no choice but to introduce pricing and taxation reforms. These included a universal price freeze, capping maximum prices, while at the same time it reinstated the land tax on Italian landowners which had been done away with in 167BC. Special tolls on money traders and companies were also imposed to help increase the tax collections.


The tax reforms were so rigid and unwavering that many people were driven to starvation and bankruptcy. The state went so far as to chase widows and children without restraint for taxes owed.
...
Just over 1.5% of the population controlled 15-25 percent of the income of the empire.

 

[Altfish]

Not if the services provided are excellent

 

[Terry Sampson]

Not if the services provided are excellent

The trash/garbage pick ups and the car washes are great, but the home deliveries fall a bit short.

 

[Curious George]

Taxes should pay for: military, police, fire, education, courts, election, protection for the environment, regulation of corporations, communal areas (such as roads, parks, etc) water, sewage, electricity, basic needs assistance, needs of those for whom the government assumes responsibility, research...this list is going to go on for a very long time...

Perhaps i should say that the government should invest taxes on items that protect the health and safety of the communities and towards ends that seek to ameliorate those communities.

Just a first impression, so i might think of more.

 

[Sunstone]

@Curious George, as the Constitution says, "in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity." As you know, all of that takes money, of course. All of it translates into programs and institutions that take money. Lots of money, if you want to be a First World Nation.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Since the government is not chasing widows and children for taxes owed, I guess we're far from the dire situation that Roman citizens were in back in the day.

While we're at it, since this is a debate section, what's your attitude toward taxes outside of, of course, complaining they're too high. What should taxes pay for etc. Are you looking for convenient barbarians to join?

High taxes were always a problem in the Roman Empire, so what’s new?

ZOSIMUS, A LATE 5TH CENTURY WRITER TELLS US “AS A RESULT OF THIS EXACTION OF TAXES, CITY AND COUNTRYSIDE WERE FULL OF LAMENTS AND COMPLAINTS, AND ALL… SOUGHT THE HELP OF THE BARBARIANS.”


Many Roman peasants even fought alongside their invaders when they laid waste to the empire in the 3rd and 4th century. This was the case when Balkan miners defected to the Visigoths en masse in 378. Others simply vacated the Empire altogether to avoid the crippling tax rates along with the debasing of the sliver currency which was devastating for the Empires economy.


In fact, by the end of the 3rd century, the situation had become so dire that Emperor Diocletian had no choice but to introduce pricing and taxation reforms. These included a universal price freeze, capping maximum prices, while at the same time it reinstated the land tax on Italian landowners which had been done away with in 167BC. Special tolls on money traders and companies were also imposed to help increase the tax collections.


The tax reforms were so rigid and unwavering that many people were driven to starvation and bankruptcy. The state went so far as to chase widows and children without restraint for taxes owed.
...
Just over 1.5% of the population controlled 15-25 percent of the income of the empire.

I think taxes are patriotic act, however they need to be within reason. Some people pay so much in tax they can hardly pay the bills, or find food, or buy medicine. When you look at your gross pay and look at how much is taken out in tax, you start to wonder is this a patriotic act or is it essentially a form of legalized crime.

 

[sun rise]

I think taxes are patriotic act, however they need to be within reason. Some people pay so much in tax they can hardly pay the bills, or find food, or buy medicine. When you look at your gross pay and look at how much is taken out in tax, you start to wonder is this a patriotic act or is it essentially a form of legalized crime.

To me, that's a strong argument for progressive taxation.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think taxes are patriotic act, however they need to be within reason. Some people pay so much in tax they can hardly pay the bills, or find food, or buy medicine. When you look at your gross pay and look at how much is taken out in tax, you start to wonder is this a patriotic act or is it essentially a form of legalized crime.

As my mom always says: be either very poor or very rich in this country because its too expensive to be inbetween.

 

[Salvador]

Beginning in Fiscal year 2023, I'd like there to be a progressive national value added tax of ten percent less a monthly rebate of $165 per adult American citizen, enhancing tax revenue by ca. $700 billion annually in order to pay for the cost of expanded Medicare for everybody in America.

I'd also like there to be a 40 cent per gallon fuel excise tax hike, generating an additional ca. $70 billion of annual funding in order to pay the cost of rebuilding our nation's roads, highways, and bridges. I would not have to pay this tax, but I'd benefit greatly from this tax due to me driving an all electric vehicle

 

[Twilight Hue]

To me, that's a strong argument for progressive taxation.

When you think about tax. A number of people just think payroll and forget about things like sales tax, user tax, service tax.... and anything else I cant think of.

What really gets me is is whenever they say it's affordable or insignificant.
And yeah, that would be fine if that was the only one. What if there's 10 people saying that's an insignificant increase and it won't hurt your pocketbook? Twenty or thirty people saying that same thing all the way from local, to county, to state, to Federal. It all adds up together to become one whopping amount that can hit a person's income really hard leaving you with little left of what you worked so hard for that goes to all the municipalities towns villages States and Federal.

While progressive taxes isnt all that bad of an idea, I like a lot of people would like to see fairness in taxation where everybody pays their fair share all the way from individuals to business.

Unfortunately as a lot of us know or suspect, the tax code isn't designed that way, and that's where I think the bulk of the problem lays.

I think my jaw hit the bottom of the floor when I read about corporations pay absolutely zero in taxes and with loopholes so complicated and crafty that the wealthy won't have to pay any taxes or at least significantly smaller amounts.

I think closing any and all loopholes will be the best course of action and give everybody the same treatment as they give everybody else to which I would say a percentage of a household income would be appropriate. A flat tax across the board.

 

[Sunstone]

I have primarily two reasons for viewing reasonable kinds and levels of taxation as morally and ethically justified.

The first and most obvious reason is that I believe taxes are a necessary means of raising the vast sums that are key to discharging the responsibilities that a free people owe to each other. Responsibilities like providing for their mutual defense from foreign and domestic enemies, education, health care, and so forth. To me, those responsibilities are best fulfilled through a responsive government headed up by elected representatives.

Second, I believe taxes are a necessary aide to alleviating the dangerous and destructive gap between rich and poor. That gap was know even 2,000 years ago to be deadly to republics and democracies. To allow there to exist a huge gap between rich and poor is to invite tyranny and oppression. As Plutarch said, "No republic as ever survived a large gap between rich and poor." Today, very few economists, political scientists, and others would disagree with Plutarch. Taxes are an essential tool in sustaining democracy and keeping people free of tyrants when they are structured to re-distribute the wealth from the top downwards to the common people.

By the way, I am opposed to the use of taxes to destroy people of any and all classes, excepting only the 'criminal class', and then destroyed in the manner of Al Capone. Perhaps certain criminals when convicted (and all appeals have been exhausted) should be taxed 100% of their wealth.

 

[VoidCat]

I have nothing useful to put but I thought about this guy:

Spoiler: picture

(had to edit cuz I didn't know if one of the words would be consider cussing or not.)

 

[Kenny]

Since the government is not chasing widows and children for taxes owed, I guess we're far from the dire situation that Roman citizens were in back in the day.

While we're at it, since this is a debate section, what's your attitude toward taxes outside of, of course, complaining they're too high. What should taxes pay for etc. Are you looking for convenient barbarians to join?

High taxes were always a problem in the Roman Empire, so what’s new?

ZOSIMUS, A LATE 5TH CENTURY WRITER TELLS US “AS A RESULT OF THIS EXACTION OF TAXES, CITY AND COUNTRYSIDE WERE FULL OF LAMENTS AND COMPLAINTS, AND ALL… SOUGHT THE HELP OF THE BARBARIANS.”


Many Roman peasants even fought alongside their invaders when they laid waste to the empire in the 3rd and 4th century. This was the case when Balkan miners defected to the Visigoths en masse in 378. Others simply vacated the Empire altogether to avoid the crippling tax rates along with the debasing of the sliver currency which was devastating for the Empires economy.


In fact, by the end of the 3rd century, the situation had become so dire that Emperor Diocletian had no choice but to introduce pricing and taxation reforms. These included a universal price freeze, capping maximum prices, while at the same time it reinstated the land tax on Italian landowners which had been done away with in 167BC. Special tolls on money traders and companies were also imposed to help increase the tax collections.


The tax reforms were so rigid and unwavering that many people were driven to starvation and bankruptcy. The state went so far as to chase widows and children without restraint for taxes owed.
...
Just over 1.5% of the population controlled 15-25 percent of the income of the empire.

It isn't so much that the taxes are high... it is the spending of the government that is too high.

 

[sun rise]

It isn't so much that the taxes are high... it is the spending of the government that is too high.

I'm sure we disagree on what the government should be spending money on outside of the obvious at the local level and some at the state level.

 

[Kenny]

I'm sure we disagree on what the government should be spending money on outside of the obvious at the local level and some at the state level.

I think it was detailed quite specifically...

The Six Basic Principles of the Preamble include:

#1 in Order to form a more perfect Union

#2 Establish Justice

#3 Insure Domestic Tranquility

#4 Provide for the Common Defense

#5 Promote General Welfare

#6 Secure the Blessings of Liberty

I don't think supporting the National Endowment of the Arts is part of that list.

And whatever happened with "balanced budget" - a very simple concept and required. Spending more than what you get isn't part of the Constitution.

 

[sun rise]

I think it was detailed quite specifically...

The Six Basic Principles of the Preamble include:

#1 in Order to form a more perfect Union

#2 Establish Justice

#3 Insure Domestic Tranquility

#4 Provide for the Common Defense

#5 Promote General Welfare

#6 Secure the Blessings of Liberty

I don't think supporting the National Endowment of the Arts is part of that list.

And whatever happened with "balanced budget" - a very simple concept and required. Spending more than what you get isn't part of the Constitution.

To me the NEA helps with #1, #5 and #6.

 

[Kenny]

To me the NEA helps with #1, #5 and #6.

A new day is dawning with Sunrise... a new thought.