Are Democrats really pro-choice?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They don't have to get one at all. What an absolutely absurd way of seeing cause and effect.

It doesn't matter whether you think they "have" to get an abortion. All that matters for you to be responsible is that you recognize that they will get an abortion.

It confirms what I have often thought about the liberal mind never taking personal responsibility.

No, that's you, remember?

The person seeking an abortion is responsible for their actions, the person who performs the abortion is responsible for their actions, and you are responsible for your actions.

Again: responsibility is not a zero-sum game. You being responsible for your role in a late-term abortion doesn't diminish anyone else's responsibility. By the same token, the fact that other people's choices were a factor in the abortion - even if they were a bigger factor in the outcome than your choices were - doesn't absolve you of your responsibility.

If you're going to influence a situation so that you prevent one early-term abortion by pushing them into a late-term abortion, that's going to be on you, so if you're going to do it, you'd better be ready to own it.

... and the fact that you're so reluctant to own it suggests to me that you know just how shameful these sorts of acts are. You want to deny responsibility for your actions because you know deep down that your actions are wrong. Isn't that what's going on?

 

[tytlyf]

The Democrats control all the branches of the Federal government necessary to pass legislation. They control the House, the Senate and the Presidency. So why don’t they just pass legislation to ensure abortion is available nationwide? It is a rhetorical question. The answer is they don’t really want to.

Because the legislation will be challenged and sent to the SCOTUS. Who will then strike it down.

 

[InChrist]

A friend of mine posted this on Facebook:

"Late Term Abortion

As someone who assists in these cases, I can tell you, if you're against third trimester abortion, you don't understand why they happen.

9\10 Abortions are done in the first trimester; half of them are done by taking pills that cause menstruation.

Late term abortions are very rare and very sad events that no one is excited about. They are incredibly hard decisions for the parents to make.

These are wanted babies and something has gone very wrong.

I can tell you that it's never done because someone with a healthy pregnancy just decided to abort.

If you are for freedom, you are for abortion. If you care about people being able to make the hardest decision a parent can make, you are for late term abortion.

These are gut wrenchingly painful decisions that the government shouldn't be involved in."


My boss' wife had to have a "late term abortion" when her very wanted twins died in her womb in her seventh month. It was absolutely devastating for her but it probably saved her life. And now she has a son that she loves very much. We need to let people make their own medical decisions. Abortion is healthcare.

That was informative, but if the twins died in the womb, then it wasn’t an abortion in the sense that the procedure was not aborting the lives of those twins, since they were already dead.
Obviously, if a baby dies in the womb it must be removed and if the woman’s health is in danger an abortion may be the only solution. Yet, those situations are very rare and not the reason for most abortions. I have read that only 1% of abortions are done to save the life of the mother.So I think it is very wrong and misleading to use the excuse of saving the life of the mother as justification for the millions of on demand convenience abortions.

 

[Heyo]

Yet, those situations are very rare and not the reason for most abortions. I have read that only 1% of abortions are done to save the life of the mother.So I think it is very wrong and misleading to use the excuse of saving the life of the mother as justification for the millions of on demand convenience abortions.

This "it's only a few" excuse is a horrible argument. Can we please put it to rest?
(And it is not only used by the anti abortionists, the other side uses it the same way when they say "late term abortions are very rare so they should be treated the same as other abortions".) It was also used by the gun lobby, "it's only a few hundred of kids getting killed in school shooting, no reason to restrict gun ownership".
When you make people's deaths into a statistic (and without any need), you are an immoral person.

 

[Estro Felino]

This "it's only a few" excuse is a horrible argument. Can we please put it to rest?
(And it is not only used by the anti abortionists, the other side uses it the same way when they say "late term abortions are very rare so they should be treated the same as other abortions".) It was also used by the gun lobby, "it's only a few hundred of kids getting killed in school shooting, no reason to restrict gun ownership".
When you make people's deaths into a statistic (and without any need), you are an immoral person.

One question: why do you think the abortion rate is 10 women out of 1000 in Italy or Germany, whereas it is 20 women out of 1000 in the wealthiest country in the world (USA)?

 

[Heyo]

One question: why do you think the abortion rate is 10 women out of 1000 in Italy or Germany, whereas it is 20 women out of 1000 in the wealthiest country in the world (USA)?

I don't know and I don't know what this has to do with my post.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't know and I don't know what this has to do with my post.

Well...it has to do with the thread topic.
Do dems want universal healthcare? I guess not. They have never passed a law about abortion rights, because healthcare is a privatized sector, so they simply do not care.
In Europe, with the universal healthcare and affordable prices set by pharmaceutical companies, there is more prevention. More contraceptives used, for sure.

 

[Wildswanderer]

It doesn't matter whether you think they "have" to get an abortion. All that matters for you to be responsible is that you recognize that they will get an abortion.


No, that's you, remember?

The person seeking an abortion is responsible for their actions, the person who performs the abortion is responsible for their actions, and you are responsible for your actions.

Again: responsibility is not a zero-sum game. You being responsible for your role in a late-term abortion doesn't diminish anyone else's responsibility. By the same token, the fact that other people's choices were a factor in the abortion - even if they were a bigger factor in the outcome than your choices were - doesn't absolve you of your responsibility.

If you're going to influence a situation so that you prevent one early-term abortion by pushing them into a late-term abortion, that's going to be on you, so if you're going to do it, you'd better be ready to own it.

... and the fact that you're so reluctant to own it suggests to me that you know just how shameful these sorts of acts are. You want to deny responsibility for your actions because you know deep down that your actions are wrong. Isn't that what's going on?

The only shameful acts here are done by people killing their kids. And for the record it's just as wrong to me at any point in his development.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This "it's only a few" excuse is a horrible argument.

You are ok with millions murdered for convenience in order that the few endangered mother's don't have to make a hard choice? That's irrational. Besides no one is denying a medical procedure to them. That's a myth.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Is this your way of saying I was right earlier?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That was informative, but if the twins died in the womb, then it wasn’t an abortion in the sense that the procedure was not aborting the lives of those twins, since they were already dead.
Obviously, if a baby dies in the womb it must be removed and if the woman’s health is in danger an abortion may be the only solution. Yet, those situations are very rare and not the reason for most abortions. I have read that only 1% of abortions are done to save the life of the mother.So I think it is very wrong and misleading to use the excuse of saving the life of the mother as justification for the millions of on demand convenience abortions.

An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy.

My point in posting that was to point out that late term abortions are done when the fetus(es) are no longer viable or severely deformed and/or the woman's life is at risk if she continues to carry to term. In such cases, abortion is a necessary medical procedure. In other words, abortions are a part of a person's healthcare. And they are not as rare as you would like to believe. Pregnancy is a risky condition for many. Let's not forget how many women have died in childbirth, and the abysmal infant and maternal mortality rates the US has. My opinion is that such healthcare decisions can only be in the hands of one person - the woman involved.

Back in my mother's day, say about 50 years ago, my boss' wife wouldn't have had access to such an abortive procedure and would have had to carry to term and give birth the old fashioned way, hopefully, if everything turned out alright. Or she died. That's nonsense. And going back even farther to my grandmother's days when abortion was illegal and people had to take things into their own hands ... My grandmother used to tell me about a kid on their street that everyone referred to as "vinegar head" because that's one of the ways people used to try to abort - by stuffing a cloth with vinegar up into their cervix hoping it would cause a miscarriage. Oh and then of course, if your baby is born and you're not married, everyone is going to call it a "*******" for the rest of it's life and shame the mother for it.

I don't think it's misleading at all, when discussing late term abortions, to point out that the majority are done because the fetus is no longer viable or it's severely deformed and/or the woman's life or health is at risk.
What I think is misleading is to assert that women are just getting late-term abortions all over the place on a whim, because they've decided 8 months in that they just aren't into having a kid anymore. That's nonsense and doesn't address the reality of the situation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The only shameful acts here are done by people killing their kids. And for the record it's just as wrong to me at any point in his development.

So you don't consider late-term abortion worse than early-term abortion?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I mean that I wouldn't be surprised if you've done nothing of substance on the issue of abortion, so your claim that you aren't responsible for anything could very well be technically true.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Wrong is wrong. Either way a human life is snuffed out.

So you don't consider late-term abortion worse than early-term abortion?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Wrong is wrong. Either way a human life is snuffed out.

So when an early-term abortion is delayed and turned into a late-term abortion, you don't see this as a negative. I understand now.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So when an early-term abortion is delayed and turned into a late-term abortion, you don't see this as a negative. I understand now.

You can't turn a negative into a positive. Neither one is acceptable.

 

[Shaul]

Because the legislation will be challenged and sent to the SCOTUS. Who will then strike it down.

This assumes facts not in evidence and is rank conjecture.

 

[Heyo]

So when an early-term abortion is delayed and turned into a late-term abortion, you don't see this as a negative. I understand now.

There is one nice thing about binary people, though. You never have to worry about nuances. No, "they might have a point there", no "at least it's partially true". They are always wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wrong is wrong. Either way a human life is snuffed out.

Are you sure about that. Then you should be able to answer this question easily. Not mine, I stole it from somewhere else:

"Here it is. You're in a fertility clinic. Why isn't important. The fire alarm goes off. You run for the exit. As you run down this hallway, you hear a child screaming from behind a door. You throw open the door and find a five-year-old child crying for help."

"They're in one corner of the room. In the other corner, you spot a frozen container labeled "1000 Viable Human Embryos." The smoke is rising. You start to choke. You know you can grab one or the other, but not both before you succumb to smoke inhalation and die, saving no one."

"Do you A) save the child, or B) save the thousand embryos? There is no "C." "C" means you all die."

 

[Wildswanderer]

Are you sure about that. Then you should be able to answer this question easily. Not mine, I stole it from somewhere else:

"Here it is. You're in a fertility clinic. Why isn't important. The fire alarm goes off. You run for the exit. As you run down this hallway, you hear a child screaming from behind a door. You throw open the door and find a five-year-old child crying for help."

"They're in one corner of the room. In the other corner, you spot a frozen container labeled "1000 Viable Human Embryos." The smoke is rising. You start to choke. You know you can grab one or the other, but not both before you succumb to smoke inhalation and die, saving no one."

"Do you A) save the child, or B) save the thousand embryos? There is no "C." "C" means you all die."

Irrelevant. And a stupid fake scenario.
What we do doesn't tell us what reality is.