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Are angels consistent with monotheism?

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
If God is omnipotent and omnipresent, what's the need for angels, why would they exist? Are they not just mythological holdovers from monotheism's triangulating in their dealings with neighboring polytheism and paganism?
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
What's the need for all the myriad things that exist to exist...as per monotheism?

The why for anything when dealing with an omnimax qualities being is really just whistling in the wind.

I've seen some say love for expression, life, and communion - which can go well with most any theology.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Just to add my two cents the post #2...
Unless you have written in a holy text somewhere the reason, any answer you get or come up with will be nothing more than a guess.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
If God is omnipotent and omnipresent, what's the need for angels, why would they exist? Are they not just mythological holdovers from monotheism's triangulating in their dealings with neighboring polytheism and paganism?
I do believe in angels. They are a class of beings experiencing themselves and helping the upward progression of the universe.

We can extrapolate your question to ask; why does God need anything? He doesn't 'need' but all these beings are experiencing and fulfilling their own purpose; this is all the grand creative play/drama of God. The question takes a too human-centric view.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
Just to add my two cents the post #2...
Unless you have written in a holy text somewhere the reason, any answer you get or come up with will be nothing more than a guess.

I have a guess. :)

God has Angels for the same reason Government has Laws and people to enforce the Laws.
The Angels are figuratively, Gods Laws.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Myths, fairy tales, and all manner of fiction stories repeatedly express the same archetypal patterns and characters.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
If God is omnipotent and omnipresent, what's the need for angels, why would they exist? Are they not just mythological holdovers from monotheism's triangulating in their dealings with neighboring polytheism and paganism?
Take that reasoning and applying to its logical conclusion. Why does anything (even humans) exist at all? It's not as if God needs any particular aspect of creation, so why would it exist?

There's nothing about claiming that there's only one God, which excludes the existence of a created order that includes angels.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Depending on their assumed powers, I would classify them a form of polytheism.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
What's the need for all the myriad things that exist to exist...as per monotheism?

?????

The why for anything when dealing with an omnimax qualities being is really just whistling in the wind.

Why ?

I've seen some say love for expression, life, and communion - which can go well with most any theology.

???

Just to add my two cents the post #2...
Unless you have written in a holy text somewhere the reason, any answer you get or come up with will be nothing more than a guess.

Yes, but if we assume God exists and created the universe to spawn us, speculation about motivation is reasonable. That said, and given God's non-intervention, the possible reasons is narrowed down to very few, actually only one.

I do believe in angels. They are a class of beings experiencing themselves and helping the upward progression of the universe.

Experiencing themselves and helping the upward progression of the universe??? How do the experience themselves (as opposed to humans experiencing ourselves), and why is it necessary that they help the upward progression of the universe what with an omnipresent, omnipotent God? And what exactly is the upward progression of the universe?

We can extrapolate your question to ask; why does God need anything?

Boredom, fulfillment, companionship, to be delighted, surprised, proud and even disappointed. That we're made in God's image implies that God and man have the same needs and desires.

He doesn't 'need' but all these beings are experiencing and fulfilling their own purpose; this is all the grand creative play/drama of God. The question takes a too human-centric view.

God created us, yet you assume it was for no purpose? But I've often used your stage analogy. We are (likely) here to be tested on this stage, to see how we handle having moral free will.

I have a guess. :)

God has Angels for the same reason Government has Laws and people to enforce the Laws.
The Angels are figuratively, Gods Laws.

So are you're saying that angels enforce the laws? Why them when there's an omnipresent, omnipotent God?

Myths, fairy tales, and all manner of fiction stories repeatedly express the same archetypal patterns and characters.

Yes, man-made gods and myths.

Take that reasoning and applying to its logical conclusion. Why does anything (even humans) exist at all? It's not as if God needs any particular aspect of creation, so why would it exist?

Ostensibly we satisfy a need for companionship with beings who have free will, to reject God or not. Angels have not been tested, merely created for a totally suspect purpose.

There's nothing about claiming that there's only one God, which excludes the existence of a created order that includes angels.[/QUOTE]

Depending on their assumed powers, I would classify them a form of polytheism.

Sort of my point. But how do angels with powers fit in with omnipotent, omnipresent God in the first place?

^ It's called "moving the goalposts" and it's less than clever.

How have I moved the goalposts? You're going to have to explain what you're talking about better than that, clever or not.
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Ostensibly we satisfy a need for companionship with beings who have free will, to reject God or not. Angels have not been tested, merely created for a totally suspect purpose.
Christian theology asserts that they do have free will and that they were tested. A number (tradition holds a third) rejected God and became the demonic.

But again, monotheism isn't a denial of the possibility of other created supernatural agents that are not God.
 
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SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
If God is omnipotent and omnipresent, what's the need for angels, why would they exist? Are they not just mythological holdovers from monotheism's triangulating in their dealings with neighboring polytheism and paganism?

OK , I give you whacky subjective answer Saturdays he likes to party doesn't like to leave the kids home alone
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Yes, but if we assume God exists and created the universe to spawn us, speculation about motivation is reasonable. That said, and given God's non-intervention, the possible reasons is narrowed down to very few, actually only one.
And you are STILL reduced to pulling an answer out your backside....
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
I never thought any deity was all powerful. I believe they interacted with humans and SEEMED all powerful but weren't really omnipotent. An omnipotent all knowing being would not require or want worshipers when he himself could accomplish anything with a mere thought.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Experiencing themselves and helping the upward progression of the universe??? How do the experience themselves (as opposed to humans experiencing ourselves), and why is it necessary that they help the upward progression of the universe what with an omnipresent, omnipotent God? And what exactly is the upward progression of the universe?
There are a myriad of different lifeforms in the universe each with their own type of experiencing and growth. The ultimate purpose is realization of the Oneness of all consciousness through love of all.

Boredom, fulfillment, companionship, to be delighted, surprised, proud and even disappointed. That we're made in God's image implies that God and man have the same needs and desires.
Interesting that a deist would say that.

God created us, yet you assume it was for no purpose?
When did I say for no purpose? It is the creative force of Brahman to experience the ascension from finiteness to infiniteness.
But I've often used your stage analogy. We are (likely) here to be tested on this stage, to see how we handle having moral free will.

The play on the stage doesn't end until Realization of the Oneness by all.
 

arthra

Baha'i
If God is omnipotent and omnipresent, what's the need for angels, why would they exist? Are they not just mythological holdovers from monotheism's triangulating in their dealings with neighboring polytheism and paganism?

I was checking some Baha'i sources on the subject of "Angels" and found the following:

"Ye are the angels, if your feet be firm, your spirits rejoiced, your secret thoughts pure, your eyes consoled, your ears opened, your breasts dilated with joy, and your souls gladdened....."

"By angels is meant the divine confirmations and heavenly powers. Angels are also those holy souls who have severed attachment to the earthly world, who are free from the fetters of self and passion and who have attached their hearts to the divine realm and the merciful kingdom. They are of the kingdom, heavenly; they are of the merciful One, divine. They are the manifestations of the divine grace and the dawns of spiritual bounty."

~ Abdu'l-Baha

I suppose you could say I've met a few angels in my time...
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Christian theology asserts that they do have free will and that they were tested. A number (tradition holds a third) rejected God and became the demonic.

Christian theology also holds that there is a Trinity. Even Paul, with all the manipulations he made with Christian theology didn't have the temerity to suggest that. What troubled influence he had with the Jews would have evaporated.

But again, monotheism isn't a denial of the possibility of other created supernatural agents that are not God.

Yeah, angels appeared as early as Genesis. The Hebrew term means messenger of God which could be either human or supernatural, which is a pretty good example of how myths take on a life of their own.

OK , I give you whacky subjective answer Saturdays he likes to party doesn't like to leave the kids home alone

???

And you are STILL reduced to pulling an answer out your backside....

Yeah, Casandra and I are blood siblings.

I never thought any deity was all powerful. I believe they interacted with humans and SEEMED all powerful but weren't really omnipotent. An omnipotent all knowing being would not require or want worshipers when he himself could accomplish anything with a mere thought.

Well, It wouldn't want extensions of Itself worshiping Itself, we're back to the finger puppet analogy. That's why we have this universe so souls can be tested on a rational stage. But if God had the wherewithal to create the universe, I think omnipotent would suffice.

I wrote this little divine comedy once that I think puts this whole subject in perspective:


***BIG BANG!***


<<><>><<><>>


<<><><><>><<><><><>>


<<><>The Universe Begins<><>>



God (Voice of James Earl Jones) : Gabriel, isn't this a beautiful universe I created?
Gabriel
(Voice of Sylvester Stallone): Yes Boss.
God:
(Sigh). Adam, what about you, what do you think of the universe?
Adam (voice of Eddie Murphy): Oh, it’s absolutely delightful. I particularly like those sparkly little galaxies; and you just can't beat a brilliant sunset by the ocean or a thunderstorm over the Grand Canyon. I won't even go into women, you hit the jackpot with that one. But those black holes are a holy terror. And WHY is everything SO----FAR----APART. Man-o-man, the nearest star is 4 light years away. What were you thinking? And couldn't you at least do something about those damn mosquitoes. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes here, but if I'd have arranged things......
God: (Sigh)………(Smile)


There are a myriad of different lifeforms in the universe each with their own type of experiencing and growth. The ultimate purpose is realization of the Oneness of all consciousness through love of all.

It's hard for us to experience anything like oneness when we all have dying alone hanging over our heads the whole time we're here.


Interesting that a deist would say that.

How so?

The play on the stage doesn't end until Realization of the Oneness by all.

We have no evidence of that at all, at least not until after we've left the stage.

I was checking some Baha'i sources on the subject of "Angels" and found the following:

"Ye are the angels, if your feet be firm, your spirits rejoiced, your secret thoughts pure, your eyes consoled, your ears opened, your breasts dilated with joy, and your souls gladdened....."

"By angels is meant the divine confirmations and heavenly powers. Angels are also those holy souls who have severed attachment to the earthly world, who are free from the fetters of self and passion and who have attached their hearts to the divine realm and the merciful kingdom. They are of the kingdom, heavenly; they are of the merciful One, divine. They are the manifestations of the divine grace and the dawns of spiritual bounty."

~ Abdu'l-Baha

I suppose you could say I've met a few angels in my time...

So you're saying that angels are heavenly human souls. That would work, but it's certainly not the standard meaning for the word. Angels by all accounts were never mortal, though the mythology is often obscure.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
So are you're saying that angels enforce the laws? Why them when there's an omnipresent, omnipotent God?

They are the Law, the messengers and the enforcers
They are both Justice and Mercy.
The Angels (Laws) are what insures His Word returns as intended.

It is the Laws (Angels) of God that are the cause for the return of the Prodigal Son.
If it were not for the Angels, Man would never find his way home.


b56b1cedc1ccef260ea80c7ccd4ed9e1.jpg
 
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ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Yeah, people being saved and bad guys being caught by angels all the time. And then there's that photographic proof, here in the age of knowledge and enlightenment. Some myths from ancient, superstitious times endure in spite of....
 
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