Are all types of "desires" bad?

[punkdbass]

The commentary for the chapter "Thirst" in the Dhammapada (Eknath Easwaran's translation), basically says that we need to learn how to let go of selfish desires, but not necessarily all desires. The commentator says that the word "trishna (thirst)" does not mean all desires; but rather refers to selfish desires, the conditioned craving for self-agrandizement. "He distinguished raw, unregulated, self directed trishna from the unselfish and uplifting desire to dissolve one's egotism in selfless service of all."

He says the Buddha did not want to denigrate all desires, for he knew that certainly desire plays a role in fueling progress on the 8-fold path; and that we need "Virya (vigor)" - which is intense desire directed towards spiritual growth. Also from the quote above, it appears that desire to selflessly serve others is a good thing as well.

I guess the reason I made this thread is because when I first got into Buddhism, the idea of "eliminating all one's desires" made me feel like the Buddha was making life meaningless, and I know I'm not the only person whose stumbled over this concept. But I just want to clarify to make sure I'm understanding this correctly... what I get from this commentary is that the Buddha wan'ts us to learn to not yield to selfish desires, but that the desire for spiritual progress on the 8-fold path, as well as the desire to selflessly serve others are good things? What do you think.. can there be good desires?

 

[crossfire]

The commentary for the chapter "Thirst" in the Dhammapada (Eknath Easwaran's translation), basically says that we need to learn how to let go of selfish desires, but not necessarily all desires. The commentator says that the word "trishna (thirst)" does not mean all desires; but rather refers to selfish desires, the conditioned craving for self-agrandizement. "He distinguished raw, unregulated, self directed trishna from the unselfish and uplifting desire to dissolve one's egotism in selfless service of all."

He says the Buddha did not want to denigrate all desires, for he knew that certainly desire plays a role in fueling progress on the 8-fold path; and that we need "Virya (vigor)" - which is intense desire directed towards spiritual growth. Also from the quote above, it appears that desire to selflessly serve others is a good thing as well.

I guess the reason I made this thread is because when I first got into Buddhism, the idea of "eliminating all one's desires" made me feel like the Buddha was making life meaningless, and I know I'm not the only person whose stumbled over this concept. But I just want to clarify to make sure I'm understanding this correctly... what I get from this commentary is that the Buddha wan'ts us to learn to not yield to selfish desires, but that the desire for spiritual progress on the 8-fold path, as well as the desire to selflessly serve others are good things? What do you think.. can there be good desires?

Indeed. See "Right Effort" from the Eightfold Path:

"And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort.

Magga-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Path​

It is different from craving. Extinguishing all desires would be being devoted to self-affliction--away from the middle path of discernment Buddha started his first sermon after awakening with.

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion

 

[Omnivert]

Selfish desire is a rabbit hole all by itself though. Think about how much nicer someone is after lunch, compared to when their meeting is keeping them from eating. People get mad at you when you come between them and food, sex, warmth, sleep or whatever else.

Being a wealthy, middle class Buddhist is pretty easy by comparison. If you never want for any unfulfilled basic need, you can focus on letting go of selfish desires for more money or more things.


upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs.svg/450px-Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs.svg.png

I get that this pyramid can be criticized a million different ways and that society can reorder the pyramid or lay a lot of it flat. I'm posting it to illustrate that most of the time, for most people, it is easier to work on your spiritual attitude when you have your needs met. It would appear obvious and cruddy to people watching you if all your Buddha nature BS drops off when you lose your job and can't pay your bills, your heat gets turned off, or your kid gets sick and keeps you up at night.

That insecurity is what leads to people taking vows of poverty, begging, refusing food, being poor on purpose, living with animals, or whatever else while studying spirituality - so they know that they can keep it up when times get tough.

I'm not sure I buy that though. There is a big difference between living through hard times and self inflicting hard times knowing that you can walk away from it and go back to your health and money whenever you want.

 

[punkdbass]

Indeed. See "Right Effort" from the Eightfold Path:

"And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort.

Magga-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Path​

It is different from craving. Extinguishing all desires would be being devoted to self-affliction--away from the middle path of discernment Buddha started his first sermon after awakening with.

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion

Thanks. Part of the reason I posted this thread was because I remember when I started getting into Buddhism that the idea of "right effort" always confused me because I thought you had to eliminate ALL desires, in which case what would "effort" come to mean? Right effort makes a little more sense to me now though.

 

[von bek]

There are two separate Pali words that the Buddha uses that are often both translated as "desire" in English, tanha and chanda. These words are not the same in meaning. Tanha, (thirst or craving) always has negative connotations. Tanha leads to clinging and suffering. Chanda is a desire to act that can be a wholesome mental factor. Desiring to root anger out of the mind would be chanda. Wanting a cigarette is tanha.

 

[Secret Chief]

One steps onto the path because of desire: the desire to assist all beings (bodhicitta).

Also, the desire for a good coffee.

 

[crossfire]

There are two separate Pali words that the Buddha uses that are often both translated as "desire" in English, tanha and chanda. These words are not the same in meaning. Tanha, (thirst or craving) always has negative connotations. Tanha leads to clinging and suffering. Chanda is a desire to act that can be a wholesome mental factor. Desiring to root anger out of the mind would be chanda. Wanting a cigarette is tanha.

Hence, the middle path of discernment.

 

[Ablaze]

The desire underpinning right effort is chandaṃ - a resolution, strength of will, or a wholesome motivation.

The desires the Buddha advised us to abandon are sensual desire (kāmataṇhā), desire to be (bhavataṇhā), and desire not to be (vibhavataṇhā). Craving for sense objects and sense pleasures, craving eternal life, and craving annihilation are the three roots of suffering. In the second noble truth, the Buddha explicitly taught that the cause of suffering (dukkhasamudayaṃ) is taṇhā, in particular, these three kinds of desire.

 

[DreadFish]

One steps onto the path because of desire: the desire to assist all beings (bodhicitta).

Also, the desire for a good coffee.

Hence, the middle path of discernment.

The desire for good coffee is also indicative of fine discernment

 

[Darkstorn]

Extinguishing all desires would be being devoted to self-affliction--away from the middle path of discernment Buddha started his first sermon after awakening with.

This is a matter of language.

Desire is a state of mind: Your state of mind has no bearing on the existence of other things. Or their non-existence for that matter.

"a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen."

That is the accepted English definition of the word. We cannot abandon language conventions, otherwise communication in this forum becomes impossible. It is accepted that desire means nothing more than that. If you change the meaning, you must tell us the meaning first.

Simply because you no longer desire something doesn't mean you have to forgo it altogether.

There is also the obvious difference between needs and wants: To forgo things needed for basic survival / cessation of suffering has nothing to do with desire... Except when it is specifically your desire to abandon said things. Ascetism is a form of desire...

You will actually need to extinguish all desire to find true peace. Otherwise there is strife within your own mind: Something is unresolved. You still desire something; Not all the fetters have been broken.

I am sorry for having to say this because it could cause suffering: You are wrong.

/EDIT: Not all desire is "bad" though: Your desire can sometimes help others, for example: For the desire to help people. It can be a good thing in life, and as a means to help / teach others. But... Eventually you will HAVE to abandon all desire. No ifs, no buts.

 

[crossfire]

This is a matter of language.

Desire is a state of mind: Your state of mind has no bearing on the existence of other things. Or their non-existence for that matter.

"a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen."

That is the accepted English definition of the word. We cannot abandon language conventions, otherwise communication in this forum becomes impossible. It is accepted that desire means nothing more than that. If you change the meaning, you must tell us the meaning first.

Simply because you no longer desire something doesn't mean you have to forgo it altogether.

There is also the obvious difference between needs and wants: To forgo things needed for basic survival / cessation of suffering has nothing to do with desire... Except when it is specifically your desire to abandon said things. Ascetism is a form of desire...

You will actually need to extinguish all desire to find true peace. Otherwise there is strife within your own mind: Something is unresolved. You still desire something; Not all the fetters have been broken.

I am sorry for having to say this because it could cause suffering: You are wrong.

/EDIT: Not all desire is "bad" though: Your desire can sometimes help others, for example: For the desire to help people. It can be a good thing in life, and as a means to help / teach others. But... Eventually you will HAVE to abandon all desire. No ifs, no buts.

See post #2 of this thread where Buddha explains that creation of targeted desires is the method of Right Effort of the Noble Eightfold Path.

[snark] {no if's, no buts} [/snark]

 

[ratikala]

Are all types of desires bad ? .....


no , it is only the way we attatch to desire that is bad

 

[crossfire]

Are all types of desires bad ? .....


no , it is only the way we attatch to desire that is bad

Agreed!

 

[Darkstorn]

See post #2 of this thread where Buddha explains that creation of targeted desires is the method of Right Effort of the Noble Eightfold Path.

[snark] {no if's, no buts} [/snark]

Yes. I am not disputing that: However i am making the claim that liberation is not possible without extinguishing all desire. Some desires can help on the path: But in the very end they must be extinguished.

So yes, there is right effort that leads to liberation; But only up to a point. In the end you must extinguish everything that attaches you to this world. This would also include the good desires.

And again, you don't have to desire something in order to be able to use it. Desire is a state of mind; Not an action.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This is a matter of language.

Desire is a state of mind: Your state of mind has no bearing on the existence of other things. Or their non-existence for that matter.

"a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen."

That is the accepted English definition of the word. We cannot abandon language conventions, otherwise communication in this forum becomes impossible. It is accepted that desire means nothing more than that. If you change the meaning, you must tell us the meaning first.

Simply because you no longer desire something doesn't mean you have to forgo it altogether.

There is also the obvious difference between needs and wants: To forgo things needed for basic survival / cessation of suffering has nothing to do with desire... Except when it is specifically your desire to abandon said things. Ascetism is a form of desire...

You will actually need to extinguish all desire to find true peace. Otherwise there is strife within your own mind: Something is unresolved. You still desire something; Not all the fetters have been broken.

I am sorry for having to say this because it could cause suffering: You are wrong.

/EDIT: Not all desire is "bad" though: Your desire can sometimes help others, for example: For the desire to help people. It can be a good thing in life, and as a means to help / teach others. But... Eventually you will HAVE to abandon all desire. No ifs, no buts.

This supersedes the response I was going to post. Nicely stated and illustrated.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Are all types of desires bad ? .....


no , it is only the way we attatch to desire that is bad

Seems one would need to consider why a label is designated to what is a natural inclination, or is it disposition?.. . It leads to what is "good/bad" via the action of desire, or is it to desire in it's own right as it's experienced directly whenever it rises and secedes?

 

[crossfire]

Yes. I am not disputing that: However i am making the claim that liberation is not possible without extinguishing all desire. Some desires can help on the path: But in the very end they must be extinguished.

So yes, there is right effort that leads to liberation; But only up to a point.

While I'm not disputing the possibility of effortless practice, you still have the maintenance problem to contend with--you can't just sit on your laurels.

(iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen:​

In the end you must extinguish everything that attaches you to this world. This would also include the good desires.

You do that through anatta practice--this (thing of the world) is not my self, that (thing of the world) is not my self, etc.

And again, you don't have to desire something in order to be able to use it. Desire is a state of mind; Not an action.

Purified desire becomes the wisdom of discernment.

 

[Banjankri]

What do you think.. can there be good desires?

No. In the same way, there are no bad desires. It may sound unclear, but after further investigation, it becomes clear why.

 

[Estro Felino]

Of course not. All those desires which match with the welfare of mankind, are good. And they must be fulfilled.

 

[Banjankri]

Of course not. All those desires which match with the welfare of mankind, are good. And they must be fulfilled.

Since everything is relative, there is no such thing as welfare of mankind. Since the goal cannot be reached, the only thing what's left is striving, which causes... suffering.