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Featured 'Apologiz-ing' (1 Pet. 3:15) to Muslims and Islam

Discussion in 'Quranic Debates' started by Crosstian, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    That's a false translation of the Hebrew, it actually says:

    Jer 8:8 איכה תאמרו חכמים אנחנו ותורת יהוה אתנו אכן הנה לשׁקר עשׂה עט שׁקר ספרים׃

    Jer 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

    It doesn't say that the scribes, or their pens, lied. It is saying that no one was paying attention to what was written. In other words, God's words, as recorded by faithful scribes, was being ignored and not followed.

    Context:

    Jer 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?
     
    #121 Crosstian, Nov 14, 2019
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  2. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Back to making excuses. :)
     
  3. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Thank you for that admission.
     
  4. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Define "revealed"? All scripture is given by inspiration of God:

    Gen_41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

    2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    2Pe_1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    2Sa_22:31 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.

    Psa_18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.​

    Therefore, Genesis-Malachi, Matthew - Revelation. 66 Books.
     
  5. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Matthew (Gospel) was a direct disciple of Jesus, as was John (Gospel, 3 Epistles and Revelation), and so also Peter (who wrote 2 Epistles). James also wrote an epistle. Jude also wrote an Epistle. If you discount Paul's experience with Jesus and his visions, how do you explain his acceptance by the others? Even if you discount Paul, the persons I mentioned were direct eyewitnesses.
     
  6. Firemorphic

    Firemorphic Activist Membrane

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    Sure but random poetry is also written in inspiration of God too, that's not an argument of the authority of a text.

    The only texts in the Bible that could be argued to have relationship to actual divine revelation are Deuteronomy and Isaiah but even both of those books have their issues of inserted parts.

    66 books but not the 73? what gives? canonization is not bestowed upon you by God. They were assembled by a group of people in a room in the 4th century after controversy and disputes by a large variety of separate pre-Christian ideologies with different texts, different canons and different doctrines all at war with each other.

    Surely if you believe in God and you believe in Prophets then you would not gloss over the idea of God actually revealing scripture directly to a Prophet? rather than just a bunch of people writing essentially stories about Prophets who have been dead for centuries.

    Your reference to "inspired by God" is just weak apologetic that fails to even grasp that even the Bible itself doesn't claim it about itself.

    The only area where this truly differs is back in the Torah of Moses, which in itself is a complex construction and not a face-value thing, again in reference to Deuteronomy especially.

    As for the New Testament, the entire canon has no leg to stand on whatsoever, they are not in any sense of the word historically reliable texts, nor are they free from bias. And at that, they are theologically-driven polemics against non-Christians.

    And at that too, what makes Paul, the other Epistle writers and St John of Patmos reliable or authoritative to you?
     
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  7. Firemorphic

    Firemorphic Activist Membrane

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    No, the texts are anonymous and merely a selected handful out of the rest of texts titled "apocrypha". We cannot know what else was lost to history, let alone what took place before Jesus' "death" and the writing of the earliest NT text.
     
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  8. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    What are you talking about?

    2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

    2Pe 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
    2Pe 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
    2Pe 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

    Joh 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
    2Pe_1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.​

    John:

    Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

    Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    Jude:

    Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:​

    James:

    Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.​
     
  9. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Yep, as the Bible itself gives:

    For instance (shown from the KJB and DR; Douay Rheims Online, 'DR' from here on), there was already the "church in the wilderness", which was with Moses, children of Israel:

    Act. 7:38 KJB This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

    Act. 7:38 DR This is he that was in the church in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on mount Sina, and with our fathers; who received the words of life to give unto us.​

    Additionally, Paul wrote that the "oracles of God" were committed unto the Jews, and Peter also mentions this:

    Rom. 3:1 KJB What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

    Rom. 3:2 KJB Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

    Rom. 3:1 DR What advantage then hath the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?

    Rom. 3:2 DR Much every way. First indeed, because the words of God were committed to them.

    Heb. 5:12 KJB For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

    Heb. 5:12 DR For whereas for the time you ought to be masters, you have need to be taught again what are the first elements of the words of God: and you are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

    1 Pet. 4:11 KJB If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    1 Pet. 4:11 DR If any man speak, let him speak, as the words of God. If any man minister, let him do it, as of the power, which God administereth: that in all things God may be honoured through Jesus Christ: to whom is glory and empire for ever and ever. Amen.​

    Now the DR here (1 Pet. 4:11), inserting a comma changes the meaning, from the text itself as from saying (KJB) that when men speak they are to speak what the scriptures say, and the Jesuit (DR) makes it to mean that whatever a man speaks, that is "the words of God", thus eliminating the foundation from the text itself, to men (in what they say).

    The entire OT texts were already 'canon' in the days of Jesus, none of which included any of the apocrypha (aka 'catholic deuterocanon'). Jesus Himself identified the texts:

    Luk. 24:44 KJB And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    Luk. 24:45 KJB Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

    Luk. 24:44 DR And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    Luk. 24:45 DR Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.​

    Jesus identified the beginning and the ending of the OT among the children of Israel:

    Mat. 23:35 KJB That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

    Mat. 23:35 DR That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.

    Luk. 11:50 KJB That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

    Luk. 11:50 DR That the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation,

    Luk. 11:51 KJB From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

    Luk. 11:51 DR From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, who was slain between the altar and the temple: Yea I say to you, It shall be required of this generation.​

    This is an important statement by Jesus since, it gives two 'book ends' on the prophets, "Abel" unto "Zacharias", which was the "A" to "Z" of the OT, since according to the children of Israel's reckoning, Chronicles was the last bookof the Tanakh (OT) [Torah (Gen. to Deut.), Prophets (Jos. to Mal.), Writings (Psa. to 2 Chron.)]:

    2 Chron. 24:20 KJB And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.

    2 Chron. 24:20 DR The spirit of God then came upon Zacharias the son of Joiada the priest, and he stood in the sight of the people, and said to them: Thus saith the Lord God: Why transgress you the commandment of the Lord which will not be for your good, and have forsaken the Lord, to make him forsake you?

    2 Chron. 24:21 KJB And they conspired against him, and stoned him with stones at the commandment of the king in the court of the house of the LORD.

    2 Chron. 24:21 DR And they gathered themselves together against him, and stoned him at the king's commandment in the court of the house of the Lord.

    2 Chron. 24:22 KJB Thus Joash the king remembered not the kindness which Jehoiada his father had done to him, but slew his son. And when he died, he said, The LORD look upon it, and require it.

    2 Chron. 24:22 DR And king Joas did not remember the kindness that Joiada his father had done to him, but killed his son. And when he died, he said: The Lord see, and require it.​

    I would recommend a helpful webpage with further detail - How Many Books Are In The Old Testament?

    Peter also already knew (well before AD 90, sometime circa AD 65-68, since the epistles mention Peter's nearing death (2 Pet. 1:14) what the 'scriptures' were in regards to Paul's epistles (14 letters, Romans to Hebrews; ie, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews):

    2 Pet. 3:16 KJB As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    2 Pet. 3:16 DR As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.​

    The Holy Scriptures are inspired of God, and are therefore, not 'catholic', but rather is God's word, the "word of God" (Jhn. 10:35):

    2 Tim. 3:15 KJB And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    2 Tim. 3:15 DR And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    2 Tim. 3:16 KJB All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    2 Tim. 3:16 DR All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice,

    2 Tim. 3:17 KJB That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    2 Tim. 3:17 DR That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

    2 Pet. 1:21 KJB For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    2 Pet. 1:21 DR For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.​

    The "scriptures" were already well known in Jesus' day in regards the OT, as per:

    Dan. 10:21; Mat. 21:42. 22:29, 26:54,56; Mar. 12:10,24, 14:49, 15:28; Luk. 4:21, 24:27,32,45; Jhn. 2:22, 5:39, 7:38,42, 10:35, 13:18, 17:12, 19:24,28,36,37, 20:9; Act. 1:16, 8:32,35, 17:2,11, 18:24,28; Rom. 1:2, 4:3, 9:17, 10:11, 11:2, 15:4, 16:26; 1 Cor. 15:3,4; Gal. 3:8,22, 4:30; 1 Tim. 5:18; 2 Tim. 3:15,16; Jam. 2:8,23, 4:5; 1 Pet. 2:6; 2 Pet. 1:20, 3:16​

    In fact, how could Jesus say to the Jews, "Search the scriptures" that prophesied of Christ Jesus, if the Jews had no idea what "the scriptures" were, to search, and every man had their own idea as to what constituted them?

    Jhn. 5:39 KJB Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Jhn. 5:39 DR Search the scriptures, for you think in them to have life everlasting; and the same are they that give testimony of me.

    In fact, none of the apocrypha ('catholic deuterocanon'), are cited by any of the Apostles in the NT as fulfilling prophecy (some might attempt to point to Jud. citing so-called 'Enoch' (pseudopigrahpon), but that is another matter, and it doesn't either, as both are referring to Gen. and Deut.).

    The angel Gabriel, in the days of Daniel was able to explain to Daniel, the prophecies given him from the very texts which existed before 'Daniel' was written (basically Gen. to Jer. (maybe some Eze.) and others hadn't yet been written by then, such as Ezr., Neh., Est., etc. and some of the 'minor prophets'):

    Dan. 10:21 KJB But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

    Dan. 10:21 DR But I will tell thee what is set down in the scripture of truth: and none is my helper in all these things, but Michael your prince.​
     
  10. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Yep, as the Bible itself gives:

    As for the 'apocrypha ('catholic deuterocanon'), they were never accepted as Canon in the OT, not even by Jesus' day, nor Josephus' day.

    "The apocryphal books were not admitted into the canon of Scripture during the first four centuries of the Christian church. They are not mentioned in the catalogue of inspired writings made by Melito, bishop of Sardis, who flourished in the second century, nor in those of Origen, in the third century, of Athanasius, Hilary, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius, Gregory Nazianzen, Amphilochius, Jerome, Rufinus, and others of the fourth century; nor in the catalogue of canonical books recognized by the Council of Laodicea, held in the same century, whose canons were received by the Catholic Church; so that, as Bishop Burnet well observes, "we have the concurring sense of the whole church of God in this matter." To this decisive evidence against the canonical authority of the apocryphal books, we may add that they were never read in the Christian church until the fourth century, when, as Jerome informs us, they were read "for example of life and instruction of manners, but were not applied to establish any doctrine;" and contemporary writers state that although they were not approved as canonical or inspired writings, yet some of them, particularly Judith, Wisdom, and Ecclesiasticus, were allowed to be perused by catechumens. As proof that they were not regarded as canonical in the fifth century, Augustine relates that when the book of Wisdom was publicly read in the church, it was given to the readers or inferior ecclesiastical officers, who read it in a lower place than those books which were universally acknowledged to be canonical, which were read by the bishops and presbyters in a more eminent and conspicuous manner. To conclude: Notwithstanding the veneration in which these books were held by the Western Church, it is evident that the same authority was never ascribed to them as to the Old and New Testament; until the last Council of Trent, at its fourth session, presumed to place them all (excepting the prayer of Manasseh and the third and fourth books of Esdras) in the same rank with the inspired writings of Moses and the prophets." - An Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures. by Thomas Hartwell Horne, B.D. of Saint John's College, Cambridge; rector of the United Parishes of Saint Edmund the King and Martyr and Saint Nicholas Acons, Lombard Street; Prebendary of Saint Paul's; New Edition, from the Eighth London Edition, Corrected and Enlarged. Illustrated with numerous maps and fac-similies of Bilical Manuscripts. Volume I. Philadelphia: Published by J. Whetham & Son, 144 Chestnut Street. Stereotyped by L. Johnson. 1841.; page 426 (left column) - An Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures

    Even the so-called Canon of Laodicea Canon LX does not give the 'Catholic' Canon.

    "... Canon LX.

    These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world; 2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.

    And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon ..." - Philip Schaff: NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    Apocrypha, and the reasons they are not accepted as "canon":

    "... 1. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone (a little Syriac/Chaldee in Daniel, etc.) used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

    2. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.

    3. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.

    4. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.

    5. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.

    6. It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead...

    7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation. ..." - bro. Sam Gipp - https://samgipp.com/answerbook/?page=34.htm

    As for the amount of 'books' in the whole of scripture as we now have them in the KJB, we can know that there are 66 books:

    There are two stacks of 6 loaves on the table of shewbread, which represents God's word, taken together. 6-6.

    Across from the table of shew bread is the candlestick when all the flowers, knops etc added up. 66.

    The book of Isaiah, being the mini bible, from creation to redemption and new heavens and earth, are chapters. 66

    The number of man is 6. Jesus took upon himself the form of a servant, and became 'man', 6. There God who took upon himself humanity (Jesus) and man. 6 - 6.

    The OT itself, the standard of judgment is the limit of the law, meaning, 40 stripes save 1. 39.

    The NT is a little more interesting, in that there are 4 gospels, corresponding to the 4 living creatures of Revelation, 7 letters to 7 churches by Paul as like in Revelation, etc and it also ties into the Sanctuary. The 4 gospels in the altar of Sacrifice, the book of Acts the Laver of Baptism, the letters to the churches and epistles the life in the Holy Place (bread (word), incense (prayer), light (share)), and Revelation ending in the Most Holy Place. It also is 3 to the 3rd power (3x3x3). 27.​

    Consider the 7 Branch Candlestick and 66 number in totaling all the knops, etc.

    Psa_119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

    Exo 25:31 And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.

    Exo 25:32 And six branches shall come out of the sides of it; three branches of the candlestick out of the one side, and three branches of the candlestick out of the other side:

    Exo 25:33 Three bowls made like unto almonds, with a knop and a flower in one branch; and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch, with a knop and a flower: so in the six branches that come out of the candlestick.

    Exo 25:34 And in the candlestick shall be four bowls made like unto almonds, with their knops and their flowers.

    Exo 25:35 And there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the candlestick.

    Exo 25:36 Their knops and their branches shall be of the same: all it shall be one beaten work of pure gold.

    Exo 25:37 And thou shalt make the seven lamps thereof: and they shall light the lamps thereof, that they may give light over against it.

    Exo_37:17 And he made the candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work made he the candlestick; his shaft, and his branch, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, were of the same:

    Exo_37:20 And in the candlestick were four bowls made like almonds, his knops, and his flowers:

    Exo_37:22 Their knops and their branches were of the same: all of it was one beaten work of pure gold.​

    [1] Knops per side (6) branch x 3 = 18
    [2] Flowers per side (6) branch x 3 = 18
    [3] Bowls per (6) branch x 3 = 18
    [4] 6 side branches (3 of each knop, flower and bowl per (thus 9)) = 54
    [5] 1 central (branch) stock (4 knops, 4 flowers, 4 bowls) = 12
    [6] Total = 18 + 18 + 18 + 12 = 66

    https://i0.wp.com/sdamaranathachurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AWHN-Bible-Psalms-77-Vs-13-Thy-Way-O-God-Is-In-The-Sanctuary.jpg?resize=341,1024&ssl=1
    [​IMG]
     
    #130 Crosstian, Nov 14, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  11. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Ha! You actually believe 'catholic' history? Nonsense, Peter already knew in AD 60-65 that Paul's epistles were "scripture":

    2Pe_3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    They also had nothing to do with the OT material, already known by Jesus, see previous post.
     
    #131 Crosstian, Nov 14, 2019
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  12. Firemorphic

    Firemorphic Activist Membrane

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    Incorrect, the New Testament writers used the Septuagint, which contains the Apocrypha. This is basic factual history. The "apocrypha" can't be too bad if the New Testament authors quoted from it.
    Protestants are the only ones who took them out of the canon, Christians before you had and still have, a larger canon.
     
  13. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    That's impossible for several reasons. There is no such thing as "the septuagint". There are what are "called" septuaginta, which are also nothing of the sort, all based in various forms of Origen's Hexapla, Symmachus, Aquila and Theodotion, stemming from the corruption of Codex B, Vaticanus, etc, which is where Brenton's 'version' comes from, etc:

    The Mythological Septuagint [PDF, click to read]

    The Septuagint [LXX] as we presently know it, appears first in the writings of Origen [Hexapla] at near the end of the 2nd century AD, and the mention by the so-called "Letter of Aristeas", based on an unfounded and mostly discredited "legend", is seriously problematic.

    "... Most of these fables focus on an infamous “book” 14 called the Letter of Aristeas” 15 (hereafter called the Letter) and the alleged claims of the Letter’s documentation by authors who wrote before the first coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the first few centuries following His first sojourn on earth. 16 The only extant Letter is dated from the eleventh century. In addition, there is no pre-Christian Greek translation of the He-brew Old Testament text, which the Letter alleges, that has been found, in-cluding the texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls. ..." - http://www.theoldpathspublications.com/Downloads/Free/The Septuagint ebook.pdf

    "... the story of Aristeas appears comparatively rational. Yet it has long been recognized that much of it is unhistorical, in particular the professed date and nationality of the writer. Its claims to authenticity were demolished by Dr. Hody two centuries ago (De bibliorum textibus originalibus, Oxon., 1705) ..." - The Septuagint, by H. St. J. Thackeray

    De bibliorum textibus originalibus - Humfredi Hodii linguae graecae professoris regii et Archidiaconi Oxon. De bibliorum textibus originalibus, versionibus graecis, & latina vulgata libri 4..

    Other sources, identifying the same - The Septuagint

    "... Roman Catholics use the idea that Christ quoted the Septuagint to justly include the Apocrypha in their Bibles. ... Since no Hebrew Old Testament ever included the books of the Apocrypha, the Septuagint is the only source the Catholics have for justifying their canon. Many Reformers and Lutherans wrote at great length refuting the validity of the Septuagint. ..." - http://www.wcbible.org/documents/septuagint.pdf

    "... [Page 46] Proponents of the invisible LXX will try to claim that Origen didn't translate the Hebrew into Greek, but only copied the LXX into the second column of his Hexapla. Can this argument be correct? No. If it were, then that would mean that those astute 72 Jewish scholars added the Apocryphal books to their work before they were ever written. (!) Or else, Origen took the liberty to add these spurious writings to God's Holy Word (Rev. 22:18). ...

    ... Is there ANY Greek manuscript of the Old Testament written BEFORE the time of Christ? Yes. There is one minute scrap dated at 150 BC, the Ryland's Papyrus, #458. It contains Deuteronomy chapters 23-28. No more. No less. If fact, it may be the existence of this fragment that led Eucebius and Philo to assume that the entire Pentatuech had been translated by some scribe in an effort to interest Gentiles in the history of the Jews. ... [page 46]

    ... [Page 47] If there was an Aristeas, he was faced with two insurmountable problems.

    First, how did he ever locate the twelve tribes in order to pick his six representative scholars from each. Having been thoroughly scattered by their many defeats and captivities, the tribal lines of the 12 tribes had long since dissolved into virtual non-existence. It was impossible for anyone to distinctly identify the 12 individual tribes.

    Secondly, if the 12 tribes had been identified, they would not have undertaken such a translation for two compelling reasons.

    (1) Every Jew knew that the official caretaker of Scripture was the tribe of Levi as evidenced in Deuteronomy 17:18, 31:25,26 and Malachi 2:7. Thus, NO Jew of any of the eleven other tribes would dare to join such a forbidden enterprise. ..." - The Answer Book, By Sam Gipp, Page 46-47, selected portions, emphasis [bold] in original.

    Also:

    1 Jones, The Septuagint: A Critical Analysis, op. cit., pp. 10–54. The reader should, in all fairness, be apprised of the fact that very nearly all references in the literature which allude to the Septuagint in fact pertain to Origen's 5th column. That is, the real LXX from all citation evidence as to N.T. references – indeed, for all practical purposes – the Septuagint that we actually "see" and "use" is found to actually be only two manuscripts, Vaticanus B and Sinaiticus a. This is especially true of Vaticanus. Although this fact is difficult to ferret out from among the vast amount of literature on the subject, it may be verified by numerous sources. Among them, the reader is directed to page 1259 in The New Bible Dictionary op. cit., (Texts-Versions) where D.W. Gooding admits this when he relates that the LXX of Jer.38:40 (Jer.31:40 in the MT) as shown in figure 214 has been taken from the Codex Sinaiticus. Thomas Hartwell Horne is even more direct in An Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures, 9th ed., Vol. II, (London, Eng.: Spottiswoode and Shaw, 1846), fn. 1. p. 282 and fn. 3 p. 288. It has been established that both were produced from Origen's 5th column. Thus, the Septuagint which we actually utilize in practical outworking, the LXX which is cited almost ninety percent of the time, is actually the LXX that was written more than 250 years after the completion of the New Testament canon – and by a "Catholicized Jehovah's Witness" at that! Moreover, it must be seen that the testimony of these two corrupted manuscripts is almost solely responsible for the errors being foisted upon the Holy Scriptures in both Testaments by modern critics! - Footnote 1, Which Version?, by Floyd Nolen Jones, 20th edition page 129 [PDF]











    Further:

    The Truth About "the LXX" - Septuagint - Dr Phil Stringer
     
  14. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    I provided documented historical uncontested evidence, that it isn't so. You provided, "you". I'll continue to go with veracity of the former, rather than the vanity of the latter.
     
  15. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Tell me something brother. You spoke of texts of Moses and Isaiah.

    Can you prove that the texts you attribute to them have any dating close to the source.

    e.g. Moses and manuscript evidence that shows a close date that indicates there could be any link to Moses?
     
  16. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    I didn't attribute anything. The scripture itself attributes them.

    Moses did not write? That is contrary to scripture itself:

    Moses is the author of Genesis 1, inspired of the Holy Ghost:

    "the law of Moses" (Joshua 8:31,32, 23:6; Judges 4:11; 1 Kings 2:3; 2 Kings 14:6, 23:25; 2 Chronicles 23:18, 30:16; Ezra 3:2, 7:6; Nehemiah 8:1; Daniel 9:11,13; Malachi 4:4; Luke 2:22, 24:44; John 7:23; Acts 13:39, 15:5, 28:23; 1 Corinthians 9:9)

    "Book of Moses" (2 Chronicles 25:4, 35:12; Ezra 6:18; Nehemiah 13:1; Mark 12:6)​

    See also:

    Exodus 17:14 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

    Exodus 24:4 KJB - And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Exodus 34:27 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

    Exodus 35:29 KJB - The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.

    Leviticus 8:36 KJB - So Aaron and his sons did all things which the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses.

    Leviticus 10:11 KJB - And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

    Leviticus 26:46 KJB - These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

    Numbers 33:2 KJB - And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out.

    Deuteronomy 31:9 KJB - And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

    Deuteronomy 31:22 KJB - Moses therefore wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.

    Deuteronomy 31:24 KJB - And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

    Joshua 8:32 KJB - And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.

    Judges 3:4 KJB - And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the LORD, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.

    1 Kings 8:53 KJB - For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord GOD.

    1 Kings 8:56 KJB - Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

    2 Kings 14:6 KJB - But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

    1 Chronicles 22:13 KJB - Then shalt thou prosper, if thou takest heed to fulfil the statutes and judgments which the LORD charged Moses with concerning Israel: be strong, and of good courage; dread not, nor be dismayed.

    2 Chronicles 33:8 KJB - Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.

    2 Chronicles 35:6 KJB - So kill the passover, and sanctify yourselves, and prepare your brethren, that they may do according to the word of the LORD by the hand of Moses.

    Ezra 6:18 KJB - And they set the priests in their divisions, and the Levites in their courses, for the service of God, which is at Jerusalem; as it is written in the book of Moses.

    Nehemiah 9:14 KJB - And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

    Nehemiah 13:1 KJB - On that day they read in the book of Moses (referring to Deuteronomy 23:3-5) in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever;

    Daniel 9:11 KJB - Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse (referring to Deuteronomy 28:15,45, 30:7; Leviticus 26:14-46) is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

    Daniel 9:12 KJB - And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

    Daniel 9:13 KJB - As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

    Matthew 5:31 KJB - It hath been said (referring to Deuteronomy 24:1-4), Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

    Matthew 8:4 KJB - And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded (referring to Leviticus 14:1-32), for a testimony unto them.

    Matthew 19:7 KJB - They say unto him, Why did Moses then command (referring to Deuteronomy 24:1-4) to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

    Matthew 19:8 KJB - He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives (referring to Deuteronomy 24:1-4): but from the beginning it was not so.

    Mark 12:19 KJB - Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

    Mark 12:26 KJB - And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him (referring to Exodus 3:2-6), saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

    Luke 16:29 KJB - Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

    Luke 20:28 KJB - Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

    Luke 24:27 KJB - And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Luke 24:44 KJB - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    John 1:45 KJB - Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

    John 5:45 KJB - Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

    John 5:46 KJB - For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

    John 5:47 KJB - But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    John 7:19 KJB - Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

    Acts 3:22 KJB - For Moses truly said (referring to Deuteronomy 18:15-19) unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

    Act 28:23 KJB - And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

    Romans 10:5 KJB - For Moses describeth (citing Leviticus 18:5) the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

    Romans 10:19 KJB - But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith (citing Deuteronomy 32:21), I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

    1 Corinthians 9:9 KJB - For it is written in the law of Moses (citing Deuteronomy 25:4), Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

    2 Corinthians 3:15 KJB - But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

    Colossians 2:14 KJB - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    Hebrews 10:28 KJB - He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    etc.
    If a Muslim were to doubt any of that, that would truly prove what I have said, in that Muslims do not actually believe the prophets they claim to believe, and have imaginary prophets that never existed, nor wrote anything.

    Please especially notice John 5:45-47 KJB. Jesus is speaking. He spoke the plain and clear truth.

    The following quote comes from Omni magazine of August 1982:

    "After feeding the 20,000 Hebrew words of Genesis into a computer at Technion University in Israel, researchers found many sentences that ended in verbs and numerous words of six characters or more. Because these idiosyncratic patterns appear again and again, says project director Yehuda Radday, it seems likely that a sole author was responsible. Their exhaustive computer analysis conducted in Israel suggested an 82 percent probability that the book has just one author."​
     
    #136 Crosstian, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Well. You believing in exactly what your scripture tells you doesnt apply to me brother. So thats an invalid answer and I take it that there is no evidence that Moses had anything to do with the pentateuch though its attributed to him.

    What you just did is akin to the Tu Quoque fallacy. "You too" fallacy.

    What the Quran says is not relevant to you to authenticate your scripture.

    Rest of what you said is irrelevant.

    Thanks.
     
  18. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    I didn't appeal to hypocrisy. I pointed to the deception of substitution (in that case, of "Moses"). For instance, Muslims say they 'believe' in Isaiah (and other such prophets) to Christians, but it is not the actual Isaiah as represented by the words of scripture (KJB; TaNaKh, Masoretic Hebrew, or koine Greek, etc), but another 'Isaiah' as presented by "q" or "hadith", "tafsir".
     
  19. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    I pointed to the facts of what the texts (each individual), themselves state, which were given over a period of several thousand years, by differing persons, without ever one indication from anyone who held to those texts, that it was another, other than Moses.

    You seem to be indicating otherwise, though you presented no evidence, only assertion of apriori.
     
  20. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    What do you mean by "brother"? Be specific.
     
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