Apologies to My Jewish Friends Here

[slave2six]

I don't recall who it was or on what thread but one of you did me the courtesy to make a distinction between Jewish and Christian belief about Adam, Eve and the serpent.

Having spurred me on, I have done a little reading and have even been chatting with a Rabbi about Genesis and I have discovered that my understanding of the matter was sorely tainted by my Christian upbringing. That is, I always assumed that Christianity was an offshoot of Judaism (more like a heresy but that's another matter) and therefore that views on the fall of man within Christianity were based on Judaic views.

I was dead wrong and I find the Judaic explanations far more palpable than the Christian ones. Not that I buy into it but I do admit that I was doing a disservice by associating the two. The Judaic teaching is at least reasonable whereas the Christian teaching is odious.

My profound apologies and my sincerest thanks for pointing out this error in my thinking.

 

[Man of Faith]

Jesus was a Jew and so was his disciples.

 

[gnostic]

Jesus was a Jew and so was his disciples.

Perhaps, they were.

The problem is that they have different interpretations to the previous texts, books or scriptures, probably because at that time, the Jews and Jewish Christians were influenced by foreign religions, notably the Babylonian/Persian, Egyptian and Greek/Macedonian religions. After all, the mind-set of Jews and Christians were different to the Jews before the Exile (at Babylon), 2nd Temple Period and the Hellenistic period.

The Jews had no concept of people going to heaven in the afterlife. And they don't have "open invitation" for foreigners to join their religion, like the way Christians and Muslims teach, and they certainly don't force non-Jewish people to convert to their religion.

The concept of the Original Sin, is a Christian one, not Jewish. The Christian interpretation of prophecies with regards to the messiah is quite alien to Judaism.

 

[Quagmire]

The Jews had no concept of people going to heaven in the afterlife.

The Essenes did, as did the Jews of the Qumran community.

The Christian interpretation of prophecies with regards to the messiah is quite alien to Judaism.

Again, not so in regards to the Essenes and/or the Qumran sect.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I think even the most basic of biblical study would avoid a lot of this ignorance. For example if one was to simply look up the word "gentiles" in the old testament you will find plenty of references to them as becoming part of God's plan.

If this is the case, it is at least worth considering a new interpretation of the old scriptures might be possible, and in deed needed because of the error of the Jews at the time.

I don't find it out of line to think that Jesus and John the Baptist brought the long awaited interpretation that God spoke of throughout the Old Testament. Was it different? Sure, but the Old Testament indicates the establishment was not doing the Old Testament justice.

However this is where the Jews of that time and Jesus differed. Jesus offered something new, and the Jews clung to their old ways.
Read the Old Testament though and see where those old ways got the Jews.

Alas, this argument will go on until the end.

 

[slave2six]

Was there anything in the OP to warrant this discussion? Or is everyone so entrenched that they are unwilling to acknowledge that they may in fact be wrong from time to time? Am I the only one on this forum willing to admit to this when it in fact occurs? If so, *** are any of the rest of you here for? Just to hear yourselves talk?

My entire purpose was to demonstrate how some on this forum have improved my thinking and understanding, to acknowledge their contributions, and to offer my apologies for any past misrepresentations.

 

[slave2six]

I don't find it out of line to think that Jesus and John the Baptist brought the long awaited interpretation that God spoke of throughout the Old Testament. Was it different? Sure, but the Old Testament indicates the establishment was not doing the Old Testament justice.

However this is where the Jews of that time and Jesus differed. Jesus offered something new, and the Jews clung to their old ways. Read the Old Testament though and see where those old ways got the Jews.

Blah blah blah blah. You have just justified every possible change to any religion including your own and you now stand undefended before a host of idea that would utterly ruin your theological perspective because to you there is no justification for holding to the doctrines and traditions of a faith. Your feet therefore stand on vapor.

Good luck with that?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

you there is no justification for holding to the doctrines and traditions of a faith. Your feet therefore stand on vapor.

Good luck with that?

truth and understanding come before tradition and ritual.

However, your thread is spot on and admirable. Accept my apology for polluting it.

 

[Quagmire]

Was there anything in the OP to warrant this discussion? Or is everyone so entrenched that they are unwilling to acknowledge that they may in fact be wrong from time to time? Am I the only one on this forum willing to admit to this when it in fact occurs? If so, *** are any of the rest of you here for? Just to hear yourselves talk?

My entire purpose was to demonstrate how some on this forum have improved my thinking and understanding, to acknowledge their contributions, and to offer my apologies for any past misrepresentations.

Then why did you post it in a debates forum?

 

[Katzpur]

I don't recall who it was or on what thread but one of you did me the courtesy to make a distinction between Jewish and Christian belief about Adam, Eve and the serpent.

Having spurred me on, I have done a little reading and have even been chatting with a Rabbi about Genesis and I have discovered that my understanding of the matter was sorely tainted by my Christian upbringing. That is, I always assumed that Christianity was an offshoot of Judaism (more like a heresy but that's another matter) and therefore that views on the fall of man within Christianity were based on Judaic views.

I was dead wrong and I find the Judaic explanations far more palpable than the Christian ones. Not that I buy into it but I do admit that I was doing a disservice by associating the two. The Judaic teaching is at least reasonable whereas the Christian teaching is odious.

My profound apologies and my sincerest thanks for pointing out this error in my thinking.

Would you mind explaining what you learned?

 

[slave2six]

Then why did you post it in a debates forum?

Because this is where I was corrected and where it was most likely to be seen by those to whom I owe this debt of gratitude.

 

[slave2six]

Would you mind explaining what you learned?

Yes and thank you for asking.

Previously, I was under the impression that the Judaic and the Christian versions of the temptation in the Garden were the same. They are, in fact, not. The Christian view is that the serpent was Satan. The Judaic view is that the serpent was, in fact, a serpent. According to the Rabbi with whom I am chatting and other sources that I have found, the spiritual implications simply amount to nothing more than God allowing his children to have an opportunity to demonstrate that they trust him but there was no "spiritual forces" behind the temptation. Rather, the gist of the story is a struggle between man and the other animals.

Here is the basic idea of the Judaic view.

The Judaic religion does not hold that people are born with a "sin nature" as the Christian doctrine teaches. Their ideas about the soul are less troubling than the Christian view and certainly more reasonable.

Here is a good resource for researching information on Judaism and even asking a Rabbi whatever you are wondering about.

At any rate, I was mistaken in associating the two.

 

[Harmonious]

I don't recall who it was or on what thread but one of you did me the courtesy to make a distinction between Jewish and Christian belief about Adam, Eve and the serpent.

Having spurred me on, I have done a little reading and have even been chatting with a Rabbi about Genesis and I have discovered that my understanding of the matter was sorely tainted by my Christian upbringing. That is, I always assumed that Christianity was an offshoot of Judaism (more like a heresy but that's another matter) and therefore that views on the fall of man within Christianity were based on Judaic views.

I was dead wrong and I find the Judaic explanations far more palpable than the Christian ones. Not that I buy into it but I do admit that I was doing a disservice by associating the two. The Judaic teaching is at least reasonable whereas the Christian teaching is odious.

My profound apologies and my sincerest thanks for pointing out this error in my thinking.

Very cool.

Thank you for your apology. (I know I posted something about that a while ago, and I even received frubals for it. I don't know if I'm the one who spurred you on to learn more, but I'm glad you did, in any event.)

 

[Harmonious]

I found that frubal-inducing post.

One of my favorite learning sessions about the snake in the Garden of Eden is part of a series by Rabbi David Fohrman at Judaism - The Jewish Website

The series is 12 lessons long.

It is a very worthy and educational read.

Rabbi Fohrman's series impressed a few people. I'm one of them.

 

[Zardoz]

Yes and thank you for asking....

Yes, Frubals for you.

There is no 'original sin' and no punishment beyond those stipulated in the actual text.

 

[Quagmire]

Because this is where I was corrected and where it was most likely to be seen by those to whom I owe this debt of gratitude.

Still strikes me as a bit strange that you would post a thread in a debates forum and then get irrate because people are debating. But whatever.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Was there anything in the OP to warrant this discussion? Or is everyone so entrenched that they are unwilling to acknowledge that they may in fact be wrong from time to time? Am I the only one on this forum willing to admit to this when it in fact occurs? If so, *** are any of the rest of you here for? Just to hear yourselves talk?

My entire purpose was to demonstrate how some on this forum have improved my thinking and understanding, to acknowledge their contributions, and to offer my apologies for any past misrepresentations.

oh please Jews are all evil
We eat babies
Have big Noses
and all look like Amy Winehouse on crack

 

[Mr Cheese]

Yes and thank you for asking.

Previously, I was under the impression that the Judaic and the Christian versions of the temptation in the Garden were the same. They are, in fact, not. The Christian view is that the serpent was Satan. The Judaic view is that the serpent was, in fact, a serpent. According to the Rabbi with whom I am chatting and other sources that I have found, the spiritual implications simply amount to nothing more than God allowing his children to have an opportunity to demonstrate that they trust him but there was no "spiritual forces" behind the temptation. Rather, the gist of the story is a struggle between man and the other animals.

Here is the basic idea of the Judaic view.

The Judaic religion does not hold that people are born with a "sin nature" as the Christian doctrine teaches. Their ideas about the soul are less troubling than the Christian view and certainly more reasonable.

Here is a good resource for researching information on Judaism and even asking a Rabbi whatever you are wondering about.

At any rate, I was mistaken in associating the two.

There is some Jewish thought that people are born without souls
And only through doing God's "work" does one gain one....

According to soem Jewish thought, many people are subhumans....

so to conclude, every group has its folk that claim elitism in some form...

You see, Judaism is a religion that has grown, there is no one answer about it...and if one examines a different group and a different period in history, one can get many different answers.

One merely has to examine reincarnation.....for example

 

[gnostic]

The Essenes did, as did the Jews of the Qumran community.

You're right.

However, I did mention that the Jews of pre-Exile period were different to that of the Second Period and at least 3 centuries of this period was also the Hellenistic period.

The problem is that they have different interpretations to the previous texts, books or scriptures, probably because at that time, the Jews and Jewish Christians were influenced by foreign religions, notably the Babylonian/Persian, Egyptian and Greek/Macedonian religions. After all, the mind-set of Jews and Christians were different to the Jews before the Exile (at Babylon) - 2nd Temple Period and the Hellenistic period.

The Essenes and the Qumran community are of these periods, are they not?

The Jews before the Exile had no concept of the afterlife, or anything taught by Jews the post-Exile or what the Christians taught.

 

[Harmonious]

The Jews before the Exile had no concept of the afterlife, or anything taught by Jews the post-Exile or what the Christians taught.

I wish to correct you on that. Of COURSE Jews before the Exile had a concept of the afterlife. It only was not written down. Such things were meant to stay oral, as they were were never the main focus of a Jew's existence.

It was always there. But it was never the biggest deal to discuss.