Answering Atheists

[paarsurrey]

Not an apt description of the God I know and love. For one, I don't believe in evil.

I agree with the points colored in magenta.
Regards

 

[nPeace]

This doesn't address the problem, a shark or a lion despite how fast an evolutionary change is, is not going to last years without food. So I don't even know why you are quoting these rapid evolutionary changes as if they support what you are saying?

A shark living during the fall, would have had to change anatomy within its own lifetime and within weeks or it would die.

Perhaps you don't understand what I am saying. So I will illustrate.

This....

was not necessarily made that way by God.
God may have created a species of this kind - a plant eating fish, which quickly adapted the traits necessary for survival - including large teeth, etc.
Something much more gentle than what we have today...

Scientists find the first plant-eating shark
...and yes, they can adapt to survive, within a few years. You don't know otherwise.

That analogy won't work.

Because we have a clear comparison here and with clear goals. Lets go with people that die of starvation.

We know that they die from starvation and that this can be avoided if they get food. Therefore whatever other solution there might be, which result in people dying, it must be a worse one than simply giving them food.

Your example is about a person being ignorant about why those workers are fixing the pipes, because you haven't specified what the final goal is in your example.


But there haven't been given any explanation, that is the whole issue. God haven't explained why people have to starve to death, if he did, maybe it would be best to let them die, but so far, he haven't done it and therefore helping them seem to be the correct option.

If you truly believe that God have a plan with starving people, then you ought to fight against helping them and promote that we should just let them die, because its all part of God's grand plan. Yet I don't see a lot of people on the street with signs supporting this.

You just need to give it careful thought.
Why is it so hard to understand, how it's fitting?
When the passerby happened upon the workers, he did not ask a question. Then he did not listen when it was explained to him,. Nor did he give it any consideration.
Yes, the workmen have a goal, but you may not know if they are idiots who don't know what they are doing, and need your expertise, so the passerby feels justified in his reaction.
In fact, in your mind they may be idiots.
How is that not fitting?
Some people don't know what God is doing. Nor do they know why, nor care. They just think God is an idiot. So they feel justified in their reaction... even after being told.

No, I don't agree

Again, reason being, that no explanation have been given. You merely state that God might have a plan or that you believe he knows better and therefore there might be a reason for it.

What???
Are you sure you are following this thread? That's simply not true. I gave a clear explanation. You missed it evidently.

That is not an explanation, it merely you guessing or assuming that there might be some good reason behind it, yet you don't know what it is.

But that argument is not good enough for me and it is definitely not good enough for those people that die of starvation.

Argument? What argument are you referring to?

Its not about liking to criticize Christians, its about all religious claims and more general about making claims in the first place without anything to back it up.

For instant look at what is going on in Afghanistan, this is 100% driven by religion. Peoples lives are being ruined or they are getting killed, because some people believe they know what God think is best for them.

As an atheist, not believing there is any God(s) to begin with, seeing how these things decide life and death for a lot of people is devastating to us, because we constantly yell for religious people to back up their claims.
Yet, you don't seem to understand why some atheists are very opposed to religions. Imagine that you should discuss with a Taliban, its impossible to talk any sense to them, if what you are trying to explain to them interfere with their religious beliefs, they simply wouldn't care about what you are saying, because in their mind you are wrong and don't know the "real" God. You would obviously claim the opposite, that the God you believe in is the right one.

While the atheists are standing on the sideline, asking for any of you to prove that your God exist.

Some atheists might get upset, I don't get upset in that way, I get tired of arguments that doesn't make sense, like when you try to argue that a shark could change from eating plants to meat in mere weeks, and then quote stuff that doesn't support what you are saying.

I have no issue with people wanting to believe that some God exist, if that give them meaning in life etc. that is fine. But I don't think that its to much to ask them for proof for such believes if these impact other peoples lives. Like with the Taliban, their beliefs are being forced unto other people, without them providing any evidence for why they are right and to me that is simply not good enough.

Furthermore, when you criticize an atheist, you can only do it, if you know what there position is on a given topic, lets say abortion or something. Simply criticizing us for being atheists will have no impact on us, because its not something we believe in, its something we are identified as, its not like there is a whole lot of beliefs attached to being an atheist, except that we are not convinced that gods exist.

Maybe you did not understand my question, and that's a factor worth considering - not understand.
We've been here quite often. That can present a problem in communicating, and create frustrations. I think listening is more than hearing words... or seeing words.

I wanted to know why Atheist can't seem to take criticism, regardless if it fits perfectly or not.
The same way Atheist want to be understood about their position, a Christian wants to be understood about their position.
In both cases, that is not often the case.
However, the Christian seem to take the criticism better.
The Atheist seem to get vexed.... from what I have seen.
That's what I was asking. Perhaps you don't know, and that's okay.

@Nimos
Check out this scary fish.
Notice how different a species of its own kind is.

 

[Bethel]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.
However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Why can God not exist (as a morally perfect entity, who is all powerful, all knowing and all wise), where evil exists, although God knows when evil existed, and although God wants to do something about it?
The argument is not a sound one.

Romans chapter 8 verses 20 and 21 says this... "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Allowing suffering for a permanently lasting freedom from corruption, seems pretty moral to me.
How can that not be moral?
It would actually be evidence too of one who is all knowing, all wise and all powerful. Isn't it?

The best reality check you can give to an atheist is to simply tell them that they can't prove God doesn't exist.
They can't.

 

[Alienistic]

Yes. I agree. That's why millions who have come to know what he does, and why, have come to love him.

Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[lukethethird]

The best reality check you can give to an atheist is to simply tell them that they can't prove God doesn't exist.
They can't.

Nobody can prove that Tinker Bell doesn't exist either, so what is your point?

 

[Bethel]

Nobody can prove that Tinker Bell doesn't exist either, so what is your point?

The point is obvious.
There is no way to prove that God does not exist.

Sometimes when im talking to unbelievers, i ask them if they have ever seen a Red Rose.
Well, there is something interesting about a Red Rose and Science.
WE are in '2021. Science is very advanced, in all regards.
Yet, Science, nor human, can create a Red Rose out of the air......from nothing.
Science can clone it, make a hybrid, use a seed to grow another one.
But Science can't make a Rose unless they use a pre-existing part.
So, where Science fails to produce a Rose out of nothing...., God did.

So, if we look now to the "truth"...., then it comes down to one thing..
Just one.
Did Jesus rise from the Dead.???
Over 500 people saw Him, after he rose from the Dead.
You have 4 Gospels that are eyewitness accounts.

Each person has free will, and each person has the God given right of free will to believe what you want to believe.
Christianity is not Islam. You are not forced into it. But rather the Love of God, is offered from the Cross to each of us.
We each get to decide what we do with God's love.
But here is the thing about free will... Freewill is balanced by consequence......always.

 

[paarsurrey]

The point is obvious.
There is no way to prove that God does not exist.

Sometimes when im talking to unbelievers, i ask them if they have ever seen a Red Rose.
Well, there is something interesting about a Red Rose and Science.
WE are in '2021. Science is very advanced, in all regards.
Yet, Science, nor human, can create a Red Rose out of the air......from nothing.
Science can clone it, make a hybrid, use a seed to grow another one.
But Science can't make a Rose unless they use a pre-existing part.
So, where Science fails to produce a Rose out of nothing...., God did.

So, if we look now to the "truth"...., then it comes down to one thing..
Just one.
Did Jesus rise from the Dead.???
Over 500 people saw Him, after he rose from the Dead.
You have 4 Gospels that are eyewitness accounts.

Each person has free will, and each person has the God given right of free will to believe what you want to believe.
Christianity is not Islam. You are not forced into it. But rather the Love of God, is offered from the Cross to each of us.
We each get to decide what we do with God's love.
But here is the thing about free will... Freewill is balanced by consequence......always.

" So, if we look now to the "truth"...., then it comes down to one thing..
Just one.
Did Jesus rise from the Dead.???
Over 500 people saw Him, after he rose from the Dead.
You have 4 Gospels that are eyewitness accounts."

None of the above is correct, please.
Jesus did not die on the Cross, please. Jesus could not die on the Cross as he had to fulfill "Sign of Jonah", please.
Right?

Regards

 

[Bethel]

" So, if we look now to the "truth"...., then it comes down to one thing..
Just one.
Did Jesus rise from the Dead.???
Over 500 people saw Him, after he rose from the Dead.
You have 4 Gospels that are eyewitness accounts."

None of the above is correct, please.
Jesus did not die on the Cross, please. Jesus could not die on the Cross as he had to fulfill "Sign of Jonah", please.
Right?

Regards

Jesus spoke from the Cross to His mother and to one of His Apostles.
He also prayed from the Cross for the people who nailed Him up there.
Before He died on the Cross, He said this.....>"It is finished".
There were people who took His dead body down off the Cross and He was laid in a tomb.
He rose from the dead, and walked out of the tomb.
After this, Jesus was seen of 500+ people, and 10 of His Apostles died years later because they were preaching about Him. (they were martyr'd)_
He's coming back soon.

 

[lukethethird]

The point is obvious.
There is no way to prove that God does not exist.

Sometimes when im talking to unbelievers, i ask them if they have ever seen a Red Rose.
Well, there is something interesting about a Red Rose and Science.
WE are in '2021. Science is very advanced, in all regards.
Yet, Science, nor human, can create a Red Rose out of the air......from nothing.
Science can clone it, make a hybrid, use a seed to grow another one.
But Science can't make a Rose unless they use a pre-existing part.
So, where Science fails to produce a Rose out of nothing...., God did.

So, if we look now to the "truth"...., then it comes down to one thing..
Just one.
Did Jesus rise from the Dead.???
Over 500 people saw Him, after he rose from the Dead.
You have 4 Gospels that are eyewitness accounts.

Each person has free will, and each person has the God given right of free will to believe what you want to believe.
Christianity is not Islam. You are not forced into it. But rather the Love of God, is offered from the Cross to each of us.
We each get to decide what we do with God's love.
But here is the thing about free will... Freewill is balanced by consequence......always.

It's a story, get over it.

 

[Bethel]

It's a story, get over it.

Let me explain.

If a person says....."i dont believe the sky is blue".....then does that change it.?
So, if they then say, and "i dont want to know about the One who caused it to be blue".....does that change it from being blue?

 

[ecco]

The best reality check you can give to an atheist is to simply tell them that they can't prove God doesn't exist.

There is no way to prove that God does not exist.

You seem to be under the impression that if one cannot prove that a God does not exist, the reality is that the god must be real.

Therefore, you must believe that Allah is a Real God.
Therefore, you must believe that Thor is a Real God.
Therefore, you must believe that Shiva is a Real God.
Therefore, you must believe that Shango is a Real God.

If you can prove that any of the Gods listed above do not exist, please do tell us all about it.

 

[Bird123]

One of the Atheists argument is as follows :-

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

Is this the correct argument? I heard it before, but some of this sounds a bit strange.
However, the gist is somewhere in there.

Why can God not exist (as a morally perfect entity, who is all powerful, all knowing and all wise), where evil exists, although God knows when evil existed, and although God wants to do something about it?
The argument is not a sound one.

Romans chapter 8 verses 20 and 21 says this... "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Allowing suffering for a permanently lasting freedom from corruption, seems pretty moral to me.
How can that not be moral?
It would actually be evidence too of one who is all knowing, all wise and all powerful. Isn't it?

The answer is simple. God does not have the desire to eliminate all evil. If evil did not exist, how could one ever learn what evil is?

When one understands all sides, intelligence will pick the Best choices. Aren't all sides really needed to acquire true Wisdom??

Free choices are never free if any of the possible choices are restricted, hidden, or sheltered from one. If choices are not free, one will choose the opposite as soon as one has freedom in order to Discover what one really missed.

Is it really Intelligent to eliminate evil as a choice? I do not see it.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[nPeace]

Stockholm Syndrome.

Your opinions is acknowledged.

 

[nPeace]

The answer is simple. God does not have the desire to eliminate all evil. If evil did not exist, how could one ever learn what evil is?

According to the Bible, God has both the desire and will to remove evil.

When one understands all sides, intelligence will pick the Best choices. Aren't all sides really needed to acquire true Wisdom??

For humans to acquire true wisdom?
Allowing evil for a limited time does serve to give humans understanding in the sad consequences of human rule independent of God.

Free choices are never free if any of the possible choices are restricted, hidden, or sheltered from one. If choices are not free, one will choose the opposite as soon as one has freedom in order to Discover what one really missed.

Is it really Intelligent to eliminate evil as a choice? I do not see it.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Yes. If man was restricted from choosing a course in oposition to God, that would not be freedom to exercise one's choice.
That's why it's not reasonable to think that evil could not exist if God is omniscient and omnipotent.

The thing is, evil took a hold in the early stages of humanity, which affected us in a different way, than if Adam had not chosen a course in opposition to God... according to scripture.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus spoke from the Cross to His mother and to one of His Apostles.
He also prayed from the Cross for the people who nailed Him up there.
Before He died on the Cross, He said this.....>"It is finished".
There were people who took His dead body down off the Cross and He was laid in a tomb.
He rose from the dead, and walked out of the tomb.
After this, Jesus was seen of 500+ people, and 10 of His Apostles died years later because they were preaching about Him. (they were martyr'd)_
He's coming back soon.

Who told it to one, please?
Please name the person. Right?

Regards

 

[night912]

Yes. If man was restricted from choosing a course in oposition to God, that would not be freedom to exercise one's choice.
That's why it's not reasonable to think that evil could not exist if God is omniscient and omnipotent.

Nope, you're wrong. Restrictions can only be put on things that exist. The very idea/thought of what you just said is nonsensical.

Answer this questions. If you were on a cross section of a road and I tell you that you can go left or right, which direction would you go? Did the choice to go that direction a choice you made out of your free will?

 

[Bethel]

You seem to be under the impression that if one cannot prove that a God does not exist,

Im under no impression.
I simply told you that you can't prove that God does not exist.
That's reality.

 

[Bethel]

Who told it to one, please?
Please name the person. Right?
Regards

Many.

 

[paarsurrey]

Many.

I meant the source person of one's knowing that Jesus talked to his mother described by an eye-witness. There is none. Right?

Regards

 

[Bethel]

I meant the source person of one's knowing that Jesus talked to his mother described by an eye-witness. There is none. Right?

Regards

Did you ever talk to Mozart?
I guess he's not there.
Oh wait? eyewitnesses? Music left behind?
Is that like a New Testament, and the 4 Gospel eyewitness accounts?
Let me know if you have anything else to offer... thats just as invalid.
Thx.