...and now for something completely different: Free Will!

[Wildswanderer]

So you think that hate is equivalent to murder (even the hate of a parent towards their child's murderer), because of something Jesus is supposed to have said rather than because of any cogent argument.

Yeah, I'd kinda figured that out already.

You didn't even read the verses, did you?

 

[Wildswanderer]

So you think that hate is equivalent to murder (even the hate of a parent towards their child's murderer), because of something Jesus is supposed to have said rather than because of any cogent argument.

Yeah, I'd kinda figured that out already.

One more time:

So yes, forgiving others thier sin is important.
But the key point here is to act from love, not hate.
It's not about how men see justice, but about what God says we should do and be.

 

[KWED]

Yes, God created it, so God is responsible for both the good and the bad things we experience.

You have previously stated that god is not responsible for the bad things that happen to us.

"That's true, there are horrific things that go on in the world, but how are those God's fault? Granted, there are other horrible things like accidents, injuries, and diseases that are not a choice, and these can be considered our fate. They are not things that God does to us but rather things that happen to us as a result of living in a material world."

Yet again you are holding contradictory positions. You seem to have no idea what you believe.

Humans writing scriptures is problematic and that is why the Bible is problematic, it is a collection of writings by human authors. We don't even know who the authors were so we have to believe on faith that the Bible was divinely inspired, which is what Christians believe.

Bahai Scriptures were written by humans, yet you claim they are infallible.

I believe that Baha'u'llah had a twofold nature so He was both divine and human, and as such the Writings of Baha'u'llah are the closest humanity has ever had to the actual Word of God. Baha'u'llah wrote that God is benevolent, so that is good enough for me. This of course does not contradict what is in the Bible, it simply corroborates it.

Yet another unsupported claim. And when I point out that claiming a prophet is godlike is shirk and a serious sin, you will claim that Bahaullah was just a human and not divine.

You are all over the place. As usual. You simply disagree with whatever argument confronts you, irrespective of whether it contradicts something you have earlier claimed. It's why debate with you is beyond pointless.

 

[KWED]

One more time:

So yes, forgiving others thier sin is important.
But the key point here is to act from love, not hate.
It's not about how men see justice, but about what God says we should do and be.

How is that relevant to your claim that hate leads to murder, and that hate and murder are equivalent and deserves the same punishment?

 

[Wildswanderer]

How is that relevant to your claim that hate leads to murder, and that hate and murder are equivalent and deserves the same punishment?

I never said they deserve the same punishment. That was you.
From a human perspective, you can't punish people for what they haven't acted on. But in regards to God's holiness, he looks on the heart, not just actions.
So, sins of the mind need forgiveness as much as sinful actions do.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have previously stated that god is not responsible for the bad things that happen to us.

"That's true, there are horrific things that go on in the world, but how are those God's fault? Granted, there are other horrible things like accidents, injuries, and diseases that are not a choice, and these can be considered our fate. They are not things that God does to us but rather things that happen to us as a result of living in a material world."

Yet again you are holding contradictory positions. You seem to have no idea what you believe.

I have a perfect grasp on what I believe. I well know what God is and is not responsible for as I explained that in this thread I started:

Questions that believers cannot answer

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

Bahai Scriptures were written by humans, yet you claim they are infallible.

Baha'i scriptures were written by Baha'u'llah who was human, but He was also divine.

As a Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah was human, but He was also divine. He had a twofold nature, one nature human, the other nature spiritual (divine). Because He was a Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah perfectly reflected the Will of God (who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the Unknowable Essence) and as such Baha'u'llah was infallible.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself.” Gleanings, p. 167

Yet another unsupported claim. And when I point out that claiming a prophet is godlike is shirk and a serious sin, you will claim that Bahaullah was just a human and not divine.

No, that is not what I will claim. I will claim that Baha'u'llah had a twofold nature, so He was both human and divine. The same was true for Jesus and all the other Manifestations of God.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”
Gleanings, pp. 66-67

You are all over the place. As usual. You simply disagree with whatever argument confronts you, irrespective of whether it contradicts something you have earlier claimed. It's why debate with you is beyond pointless.

As I have said on this forum repeatedly, I am not trying to debate with anybody or 'win' any arguments, I am simply stating what I believe in response to posts. That is called a discussion, not a debate. Sometimes I have to restate what I said earlier in a different way for clarification.but that does not mean that I am contradicting myself, it only means that someone did not understand what I was saying, so I had to try to explain it again.

 

[KWED]

How about figs? Are they inanimate? Jesus hated figs.

I think that the Westboro Baptist Church misinterpreted that part of the Bible.

I thought Jesus hated a lack of figs. Something for the WBC to think abut.

 

[KWED]

I never said they deserve the same punishment. That was you.
From a human perspective, you can't punish people for what they haven't acted on. But in regards to God's holiness, he looks on the heart, not just actions.
So, sins of the mind need forgiveness as much as sinful actions do.

So you admit that hate is not as bad as murder, and doesn't lead to murder?

 

[KWED]

I have a perfect grasp on what I believe. I well know what God is and is not responsible for as I explained that in this thread I started:

Questions that believers cannot answer

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

Baha'i scriptures were written by Baha'u'llah who was human, but He was also divine.

As a Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah was human, but He was also divine. He had a twofold nature, one nature human, the other nature spiritual (divine). Because He was a Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah perfectly reflected the Will of God (who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the Unknowable Essence) and as such Baha'u'llah was infallible.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself.” Gleanings, p. 167

No, that is not what I will claim. I will claim that Baha'u'llah had a twofold nature, so He was both human and divine. The same was true for Jesus and all the other Manifestations of God.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”
Gleanings, pp. 66-67

As I have said on this forum repeatedly, I am not trying to debate with anybody or 'win' any arguments, I am simply stating what I believe in response to posts. That is called a discussion, not a debate. Sometimes I have to restate what I said earlier in a different way for clarification.but that does not mean that I am contradicting myself, it only means that someone did not understand what I was saying, so I had to try to explain it again.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So you admit that hate is not as bad as murder, and doesn't lead to murder?

That depends on whose perspective we are speaking of. Hate certainly can lead to murder.
Hate doesn't equal murder in the human justice system. In God's justice system, however, both are worthy of hell. ( eternal separation from God).

 

[KWED]

That depends on whose perspective we are speaking of. Hate certainly can lead to murder.

It can. It can also lead to reconciliation. Love can also lead to murder. Not sure what your point is.

Hate doesn't equal murder in the human justice system.

Indeed. We don't believe in prosecuting people for what they think in private, only when they act on those thoughts. And rightly so!

In God's justice system, however, both are worthy of hell. ( eternal separation from God).

So god considers hate and murder to be equivalent, but you disagree with him?

 

[Wildswanderer]

It can. It can also lead to reconciliation. Love can also lead to murder. Not sure what your point is.

Indeed. We don't believe in prosecuting people for what they think in private, only when they act on those thoughts. And rightly so!

So god considers hate and murder to be equivalent, but you disagree with him?

No I don't disagree. All sin is worthy of separation from God. Fortunately there's a solution. God's grace makes a way for us to experience forgiveness and eternal life.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Love can also lead to murder.

I don't see how. Not true love. Jealousy, yes. Coveting, yes.

 

[KWED]

No I don't disagree. All sin is worthy of separation from God. Fortunately there's a solution. God's grace makes a way for us to experience forgiveness and eternal life.

So you do believe that hate and murder are equivalent.
1. Do you think that different sins should have different punishments, or all the same?
2. Do you think child murderers should escape punishment if they sincerely accept Jesus and seek god's grace?

 

[KWED]

I don't see how. Not true love. Jealousy, yes. Coveting, yes.

True love can cause the jealousy that leads to the murder.
Also, true love can lead to someone ending the life of their loved one if they are experiencing unbearable suffering. Or don't you consider that to be "murder"?
Or how a love for Muhammad has caused people to murder those who they believe have insulted him.
There are plenty of examples.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I think that 'will,' which is non-biological, exists. I think it always has an opposer, which contorts and reforms it, and that opposer may take the form of biology, or an opposing will, or material contour. You might call the opposing force a 'biological will,' for example, if it comes from biology. Will is an inner, metaphysical strength, which is supposed to control the body, and the material around the body. If it cannot do that, it might succumb to evil, or non-production. So I guess I find it difficult to talk about it in terms of being a binary on/off switch.

 

[Wildswanderer]

True love can cause the jealousy that leads to the murder.
Also, true love can lead to someone ending the life of their loved one if they are experiencing unbearable suffering. Or don't you consider that to be "murder"?
Or how a love for Muhammad has caused people to murder those who they believe have insulted him.
There are plenty of examples.

None of those are examples of love causing murder, with the possible exception of letting someone die naturally instead of artificially prolonging their life.
Love for Muhammand would actually be loyalty to an idea, not love at all, IMO.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So you do believe that hate and murder are equivalent.
1. Do you think that different sins should have different punishments, or all the same?
2. Do you think child murderers should escape punishment if they sincerely accept Jesus and seek god's grace?

I think everyone can escape eternal punishment if they come to the cross. What I think their punishment should be is irrelevant. I'm not God. Only he has the right and wisdom to decide who is worthy of what.
You are confusing consequences for actions based on human laws with God's way. If someone does the crime, they should do the time. That's how the justice system works. Whether God shows them mercy is another issue entirely. Nobody in their right mind wants justice from an all-powerful, completely righteous God. We want and need grace....and it doesn't matter what our sin is.

 

[KWED]

None of those are examples of love causing murder,

Of course they are.

with the possible exception of letting someone die naturally instead of artificially prolonging their life.
Love for Muhammand would actually be loyalty to an idea, not love at all, IMO.

You love someone so much that you cannot bear the thought of them not being with you, so you kill them (a bit like how god can't stand the thought of us not being with him, so he sends us to hell).
Love for someone that is so deep that you would rather go to prison for murder than see them suffer any longer.
Many Muslims claim that they "love Muhammad more than their mother/children/etc."

Just face it, love can lead to murder.
And as you nicely pointed out, loyalty to your faith can also lead to murder. Loyalty to your faith is usually held up as a virtue rather than a sin comparable to murder.
Your point has been irretrievably damaged. Let it die quietly.

 

[KWED]

I think everyone can escape eternal punishment if they come to the cross. What I think their punishment should be is irrelevant. I'm not God. Only he has the right and wisdom to decide who is worthy of what.
You are confusing consequences for actions based on human laws with God's way. If someone does the crime, they should do the time. That's how the justice system works. Whether God shows them mercy is another issue entirely. Nobody in their right mind wants justice from an all-powerful, completely righteous God. We want and need grace....and it doesn't matter what our sin is.

So, just to be clear, if a serial child murderer escapes arrest their whole life, and "comes to the cross" before their death, they get off scot free. They will be in paradise next to the children they murdered.
In fact, those children might be in hell if they believed in the wrong god, or none at all.

Seems entirely reasonable, doesn't it.