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An open challenge to evolutionists.

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Yes of course, but very, very late comers. The universe is what 13.8 billion years old, humans have not been around for 0.000014th of that time. Doesn't it make you feel insignificant? ...

No! Interesting question. How come you didn't ask if it made me feel lucky?
Or in psychological terms, why should I feel something, which makes me feel "bad"? What is the use in that?

Do you feel insignificant? There are techniques in psychology which can make you feel differently.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
No! Interesting question. How come you didn't ask if it made me feel lucky?
Or in psychological terms, why should I feel something, which makes me feel "bad"? What is the use in that?

Do you feel insignificant? There are techniques in psychology which can make you feel differently.


Because (once again) i am discussing the universe. And feeling insignificant in term of the universe, should make you feel in awe, not bad

Yes, i have studied psychology at uni, totally irrelevant to the the universe.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Because (once again) i am discussing the universe. And feeling insignificant in term of the universe, should make you feel in awe, not bad

So you are in awe of the universe. But the universe is without purpose, meaning and so on, so no, I don't feel awe.

Yes, i have studied psychology at uni, totally irrelevant to the the universe.

So psychology is not a part of the universe. You are doing a weird kind of dualism. The universe is in you, too. You are a part of the universe. Don't you consider yourself as a part of the universe?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
So you are in awe of the universe. But the universe is without purpose, meaning and so on, so no, I don't feel awe.

So psychology is not a part of the universe. You are doing a weird kind of dualism. The universe is in you, too. You are a part of the universe. Don't you consider yourself as a part of the universe?

So is humanity

What! Irrelevant... What do you not understand about the word irrelevant?

Yes i am part if the universe and my atoms will be as long as the universe exists. So what?, So is the coronavirus
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So is humanity

What! Irrelevant... What do you not understand about the word irrelevant?

Yes i am part if the universe and my atoms will be as long as the universe exists. So what?, So is the coronavirus

So what? as a question can't be answered by science.

As for purpose, humans have purpose as individuals and groups. You should know that from psychology. You know, the study of the mind.
Intentionally and purpose are human traits.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I am illogical and I am still alive. So logic is not needed in the strong sense in order for someone to have a life.

How logical is a bacteria that needs a host to live yet in living kills its host?

Correct, logic is not a requirement for life
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
So what? as a question can't be answered by science.

As for purpose, humans have purpose as individuals and groups. You should know that from psychology. You know, the study of the mind.
Intentionally and purpose are human traits.

What purpose?


Ask the universe what is the purpose of humanity, i will abide by the answer.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
You do know the difference between methodological naturalism and philosophical naturalism?
The former starts with the following assumptions:
The universe is fair(no Boltzmann Brains) and thus knowable.
The universe is treated as natural, but not proven to be natural.

The 2 assumptions are the basis of evidence, but they are without proof or evidence.

They are without absolute proof but not without evidence. I can just assume that I might be a Boltzmann brain or in the matrix or that there is a deceptive god but that's an intellectual dead end. The fact is that our science works - or if it doesn't, only seems to, and one of those other assumptions are true, it might as well work because it's the only "reality" we have access to.

BTW no humans are right or wrong, unless you believe in that. There is no evidence for the fact, that a human can be either right or wrong. That is a cognitive artifact.

If you tell me you can walk out of a tenth story window unaided and fly away across the horizon, rather than falling to the ground, you are wrong.

I don't for a minute believe that you don't treat our apparent shared reality as if it were actually real, just like everybody else. All science does is take that, basically unavoidable and practical stance and formalise it - and it works.

We accept methodological naturalism precisely because it works (or it unavoidably seems that way).

And you still don't seem to get the point about using the products of science to communicate with me that there is no objective reality. If you seriously took the possibility of being a Boltzmann brain or being tricked by some demon or god as seriously as the shared reality we experience, why would you even bother?

Your view is not so much absolutely wrong in some philosophically provable way as totally and utterly useless. It totally fails to recognise the obvious and practical difference between claims about matters of fact and matters of opinion. Even if this is all the fleeting moment of awareness of a Boltzmann brain or the crazed creation of an evil demon, there is still a difference between the two within that context.

This is kind of a Pascal's wager, except that it's actually sound. We can believe what appears to be real and possibly learn something and go with what actually (seems to) works or we can disbelieve it and get nowhere.

In either case, there still is a qualitative difference between the objective and subjective in the context we find ourselves in, regardless of its absolute reality.

You are using in effect certainty.

No, I'm not.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
They are without absolute proof but not without evidence. I can just assume that I might be a Boltzmann brain or in the matrix or that there is a deceptive god but that's an intellectual dead end. The fact is that our science works - or if it doesn't, only seems to, and one of those other assumptions are true, it might as well work because it's the only "reality" we have access to.

Yes, it appears to work and that is it.



If you tell me you can walk out of a tenth story window unaided and fly away across the horizon, rather than falling to the ground, you are wrong.

If you mean mistaken about how an aspect of the universe, then yes wrong.

I don't for a minute believe that you don't treat our apparent shared reality as if it were actually real, just like everybody else. All science does is take that, basically unavoidable and practical stance and formalise it - and it works.

It works. That is pragmatism.

We accept methodological naturalism precisely because it works (or it unavoidably seems that way).

Again pragmatism.


Your view is not so much absolutely wrong in some philosophically provable way as totally and utterly useless.
Useful and useless is subjective and not science.

It totally fails to recognise the obvious and practical difference between claims about matters of fact and matters of opinion. Even if this is all the fleeting moment of awareness of a Boltzmann brain or the crazed creation of an evil demon, there is still a difference between the two within that context.

You are now in a Boltzmann Brain computer simulation. The universe is a computer and power-source and you are a simulation running on the computer. Yet you are all alone, because the other humans are not real. They are not simulated as you are. They are simulated to you.

This is kind of a Pascal's wager, except that it's actually sound. We can believe what appears to be real and possibly lean something and go with what actually (seems to) works or we can disbelieve it and get nowhere.

You can't known the probabilities. You are doing psychology.

In either case, there still is a qualitative difference between the objective and subjective in the context we find ourselves in, regardless of its absolute reality.

You are now in a Boltzmann Brain computer simulation. The universe is a computer and power-source and you are a simulation running on the computer. Yet you are all alone, because the other humans are not real. They are not simulated as you are. They are simulated to you.

No, I'm not.

Yes, you are. You are certain of the "we" you use.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Yes, that is not logical, and yet the universe is logical. Go figure.

You seem to think that I am a theist and creationist. I am not.
I believe in The Wrong One.
More generally I belong to this religion:
https://www.uua.org

Does not matter what pigeon hole you store yourself in, what matters here is the content of your posts
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
It's perfectly logical that a logically self-consistent universe (understandable by logic) produces life that isn't entirely logical. Why would you think it isn't?

What does it have to do with how I think? You have to shown logic in the universe separate of you and show how it causes not entirely logical life. Not that you can think and write it. That you can show it using science.
So where are your observational data. What is the test? So on.
 
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