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An Open Challenge To Creationists

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I've studied many of the World's religions.



I don't think Jewish people or Israelites where special enough for God to talk to them directly. I think it's all made up delusional stuff written by men who were inspired by the desire to have power over people though religious manipulation.



Here's my answer why we have so much much evil and misery in the World. The idea has to with Apophatic theology and how we define God. God is perfect, whole, and complete. Being perfect, whole, and complete, God does not have any needs or desires. Since our needs and desires are the source of all that is evil in the World, since God has no evil, God is absolute goodness. Or in other words since God has no need or desire to judge anyone then God is All-loving.

God did not create the Universe out of some need or desire. God created the Universe out of an overflowing abundance of energy. But our Universe is not perfect, whole, and complete like God. Our Universe is full of imperfections. Nature is full of imperfections. Our human bodies are full of imperfections. It is these imperfections in the Universe, nature, and in ourselves that is the source of all our suffering, evil, and misery.

The only way God could have prevented all the suffering in the World would have been by creating each of us with omnipotent powers. Only by having omnipotent powers would we be strong enough to overcome all our imperfections. The thing is if we have omnipotent powers then we would not be separate from God. We would be one with the mind of God. We would be God. God did not create us as clones of Himself.

We were all created to fulfill our part in God's plan. And that plan is we exist to realize God's omnipotence. We exist so God can share in our experiences of having limitations by God sharing in our experiences of love, joy, frustration, suffering, and death. Every choice we make is God realizing what would happen if. I believe we live in a cyclical Universe were over an unimaginable amount of time God gets to experience every possible choice we can make.

This way of thinking seems logical to me as long as you accept the assumptions I making. You can't prove an assumption. Assumptions are chosen to be true.

My way of thinking has a really interesting twist to the Adam and Eve creation story. The story is not about sin. The story is about making peace with the tree of knowledge. Once we discover our own imperfections, we are not really cast out from Eden. We just no longer experience it. Many times when people find out they were created with imperfections we turn to our creators and hate them. We hate our creators because they are responsible for all our weaknesses. And our weaknesses are the source of all our suffering. We love our parents for their strengths. But we hate our parents for their weaknesses. This is because our parent's strengths are our strengths. Our parent's weaknesses are our weaknesses. It's only when we accept who we are and love ourselves in spite of our own imperfections that we are able to have a good relationship with our parents.

The same is true for God. We love God for our strengths. We hate God for not creating us with omnipotent powers. We have to stop judging God. Until we make peace with the tree of knowledge, that is, make peace with our own imperfections in ourselves, the people around us, nature, the Universe we will not be capable of fully loving and appreciating all of God's blessings flowing all around us. Once we make peace with the tree of knowledge we are able to experience again some of the good parts of Eden we lost when we were expelled.



Well, at least you are honest and not being delusional. Many people read scripture and quote it as if they are speaking for God! As I said pretending to speak for God is the height of human hubris.



I'm sorry but I cannot accept the word "Lord" when describing God. You can't have a lord without slaves. My faith is in an omnipotent God of unconditional love. This does not include a lesser god who has the need or desire to be worshiped by slaves. Obedience to authority is not the basis for a religion. It's government propaganda written to brain wash the people into accepting the legitimacy of monarchy. You would think our God of absolute perfection would be a little more egalitarian in choosing His divine form of government. I just find it amazingly coincidental the form of government chosen by God is exactly the same one King James was promoting.

Hmmm, just take a look at what the divine rights of kings means. And take a look at King James book, "True Law of Free Monarchy." Jesus could have been telling the people the path to salvation lies within each of us outside of the church. Jesus could have been teaching don't look to worship authority outside of yourself. But we will never know because all the texts the Bible was translated from to English have been scrubbed over the centuries until Christianity has become a religion for slaves promoting loyalty to monarchy.

Friedrich Nietzsche had some acute criticisms of Christianity. He said Christianity was born in response to Roman oppression. It took hold in the minds of timid slaves who did not have the courage or strength to take what they really wanted. The slaves could not admit to their own failings. So they clung to a philosophy that made virtue of cowardice. Everything the Christians wanted and wished they had in their lives for fulfillment was considered to be a sin. A position in the world, prestige, good sex, intellectual mastery, personal wealth were too difficult or beyond their reach. The Christian slaves created a hypocritical creed denouncing what they really wanted but were incapable of achieving while praising what they did not want was being virtuous. So in the Christian value system sexlessness turned into 'purity', weakness became "goodness," submission to authority became "obedience," and in Nietzsche's words, "not-being-able-take-revenge" turned into "forgiveness." A Christian slave was too weak to have any personal voice and was only capable of bending a knee to whoever was in authority. We have to balance submission to authority with a healthy self-esteem and confidence in our own inner authority.

If you choose to bend your knee out of fear then less power to you:


Bending a knee to authority is not my natural state. Maybe it's yours. You can choose to have faith in a lesser God out of fear. Your religion's threats of eternal damnation do not scare me one bit. My faith is stronger than your fear! I choose to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who loves me no matter what! Unconditional love means no conditions! My God loves me regardless of any of my Earthly sins or how I practiced, or not practiced, my religion or any other religion. Your God has limitations. Your God needs you to behave a certain way. Your God needs to be worshiped. My God is stronger than yours because my omnipotent God of unconditional love is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires.
The body itself tells me there are limits. I know I can't jump off a building and fly.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I've studied many of the World's religions.



I don't think Jewish people or Israelites where special enough for God to talk to them directly. I think it's all made up delusional stuff written by men who were inspired by the desire to have power over people though religious manipulation.



Here's my answer why we have so much much evil and misery in the World. The idea has to with Apophatic theology and how we define God. God is perfect, whole, and complete. Being perfect, whole, and complete, God does not have any needs or desires. Since our needs and desires are the source of all that is evil in the World, since God has no evil, God is absolute goodness. Or in other words since God has no need or desire to judge anyone then God is All-loving.

God did not create the Universe out of some need or desire. God created the Universe out of an overflowing abundance of energy. But our Universe is not perfect, whole, and complete like God. Our Universe is full of imperfections. Nature is full of imperfections. Our human bodies are full of imperfections. It is these imperfections in the Universe, nature, and in ourselves that is the source of all our suffering, evil, and misery.

The only way God could have prevented all the suffering in the World would have been by creating each of us with omnipotent powers. Only by having omnipotent powers would we be strong enough to overcome all our imperfections. The thing is if we have omnipotent powers then we would not be separate from God. We would be one with the mind of God. We would be God. God did not create us as clones of Himself.

We were all created to fulfill our part in God's plan. And that plan is we exist to realize God's omnipotence. We exist so God can share in our experiences of having limitations by God sharing in our experiences of love, joy, frustration, suffering, and death. Every choice we make is God realizing what would happen if. I believe we live in a cyclical Universe were over an unimaginable amount of time God gets to experience every possible choice we can make.

This way of thinking seems logical to me as long as you accept the assumptions I making. You can't prove an assumption. Assumptions are chosen to be true.

My way of thinking has a really interesting twist to the Adam and Eve creation story. The story is not about sin. The story is about making peace with the tree of knowledge. Once we discover our own imperfections, we are not really cast out from Eden. We just no longer experience it. Many times when people find out they were created with imperfections we turn to our creators and hate them. We hate our creators because they are responsible for all our weaknesses. And our weaknesses are the source of all our suffering. We love our parents for their strengths. But we hate our parents for their weaknesses. This is because our parent's strengths are our strengths. Our parent's weaknesses are our weaknesses. It's only when we accept who we are and love ourselves in spite of our own imperfections that we are able to have a good relationship with our parents.

The same is true for God. We love God for our strengths. We hate God for not creating us with omnipotent powers. We have to stop judging God. Until we make peace with the tree of knowledge, that is, make peace with our own imperfections in ourselves, the people around us, nature, the Universe we will not be capable of fully loving and appreciating all of God's blessings flowing all around us. Once we make peace with the tree of knowledge we are able to experience again some of the good parts of Eden we lost when we were expelled.



Well, at least you are honest and not being delusional. Many people read scripture and quote it as if they are speaking for God! As I said pretending to speak for God is the height of human hubris.



I'm sorry but I cannot accept the word "Lord" when describing God. You can't have a lord without slaves. My faith is in an omnipotent God of unconditional love. This does not include a lesser god who has the need or desire to be worshiped by slaves. Obedience to authority is not the basis for a religion. It's government propaganda written to brain wash the people into accepting the legitimacy of monarchy. You would think our God of absolute perfection would be a little more egalitarian in choosing His divine form of government. I just find it amazingly coincidental the form of government chosen by God is exactly the same one King James was promoting.

Hmmm, just take a look at what the divine rights of kings means. And take a look at King James book, "True Law of Free Monarchy." Jesus could have been telling the people the path to salvation lies within each of us outside of the church. Jesus could have been teaching don't look to worship authority outside of yourself. But we will never know because all the texts the Bible was translated from to English have been scrubbed over the centuries until Christianity has become a religion for slaves promoting loyalty to monarchy.

Friedrich Nietzsche had some acute criticisms of Christianity. He said Christianity was born in response to Roman oppression. It took hold in the minds of timid slaves who did not have the courage or strength to take what they really wanted. The slaves could not admit to their own failings. So they clung to a philosophy that made virtue of cowardice. Everything the Christians wanted and wished they had in their lives for fulfillment was considered to be a sin. A position in the world, prestige, good sex, intellectual mastery, personal wealth were too difficult or beyond their reach. The Christian slaves created a hypocritical creed denouncing what they really wanted but were incapable of achieving while praising what they did not want was being virtuous. So in the Christian value system sexlessness turned into 'purity', weakness became "goodness," submission to authority became "obedience," and in Nietzsche's words, "not-being-able-take-revenge" turned into "forgiveness." A Christian slave was too weak to have any personal voice and was only capable of bending a knee to whoever was in authority. We have to balance submission to authority with a healthy self-esteem and confidence in our own inner authority.

If you choose to bend your knee out of fear then less power to you:


Bending a knee to authority is not my natural state. Maybe it's yours. You can choose to have faith in a lesser God out of fear. Your religion's threats of eternal damnation do not scare me one bit. My faith is stronger than your fear! I choose to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who loves me no matter what! Unconditional love means no conditions! My God loves me regardless of any of my Earthly sins or how I practiced, or not practiced, my religion or any other religion. Your God has limitations. Your God needs you to behave a certain way. Your God needs to be worshiped. My God is stronger than yours because my omnipotent God of unconditional love is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires.
What do you think eternal damnation is, even if you don't believe in it? Furthermore, do you believe God has the power over life and death?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I've studied many of the World's religions.



I don't think Jewish people or Israelites where special enough for God to talk to them directly. I think it's all made up delusional stuff written by men who were inspired by the desire to have power over people though religious manipulation.



Here's my answer why we have so much much evil and misery in the World. The idea has to with Apophatic theology and how we define God. God is perfect, whole, and complete. Being perfect, whole, and complete, God does not have any needs or desires. Since our needs and desires are the source of all that is evil in the World, since God has no evil, God is absolute goodness. Or in other words since God has no need or desire to judge anyone then God is All-loving.

God did not create the Universe out of some need or desire. God created the Universe out of an overflowing abundance of energy. But our Universe is not perfect, whole, and complete like God. Our Universe is full of imperfections. Nature is full of imperfections. Our human bodies are full of imperfections. It is these imperfections in the Universe, nature, and in ourselves that is the source of all our suffering, evil, and misery.

The only way God could have prevented all the suffering in the World would have been by creating each of us with omnipotent powers. Only by having omnipotent powers would we be strong enough to overcome all our imperfections. The thing is if we have omnipotent powers then we would not be separate from God. We would be one with the mind of God. We would be God. God did not create us as clones of Himself.

We were all created to fulfill our part in God's plan. And that plan is we exist to realize God's omnipotence. We exist so God can share in our experiences of having limitations by God sharing in our experiences of love, joy, frustration, suffering, and death. Every choice we make is God realizing what would happen if. I believe we live in a cyclical Universe were over an unimaginable amount of time God gets to experience every possible choice we can make.

This way of thinking seems logical to me as long as you accept the assumptions I making. You can't prove an assumption. Assumptions are chosen to be true.

My way of thinking has a really interesting twist to the Adam and Eve creation story. The story is not about sin. The story is about making peace with the tree of knowledge. Once we discover our own imperfections, we are not really cast out from Eden. We just no longer experience it. Many times when people find out they were created with imperfections we turn to our creators and hate them. We hate our creators because they are responsible for all our weaknesses. And our weaknesses are the source of all our suffering. We love our parents for their strengths. But we hate our parents for their weaknesses. This is because our parent's strengths are our strengths. Our parent's weaknesses are our weaknesses. It's only when we accept who we are and love ourselves in spite of our own imperfections that we are able to have a good relationship with our parents.

The same is true for God. We love God for our strengths. We hate God for not creating us with omnipotent powers. We have to stop judging God. Until we make peace with the tree of knowledge, that is, make peace with our own imperfections in ourselves, the people around us, nature, the Universe we will not be capable of fully loving and appreciating all of God's blessings flowing all around us. Once we make peace with the tree of knowledge we are able to experience again some of the good parts of Eden we lost when we were expelled.



Well, at least you are honest and not being delusional. Many people read scripture and quote it as if they are speaking for God! As I said pretending to speak for God is the height of human hubris.



I'm sorry but I cannot accept the word "Lord" when describing God. You can't have a lord without slaves. My faith is in an omnipotent God of unconditional love. This does not include a lesser god who has the need or desire to be worshiped by slaves. Obedience to authority is not the basis for a religion. It's government propaganda written to brain wash the people into accepting the legitimacy of monarchy. You would think our God of absolute perfection would be a little more egalitarian in choosing His divine form of government. I just find it amazingly coincidental the form of government chosen by God is exactly the same one King James was promoting.

Hmmm, just take a look at what the divine rights of kings means. And take a look at King James book, "True Law of Free Monarchy." Jesus could have been telling the people the path to salvation lies within each of us outside of the church. Jesus could have been teaching don't look to worship authority outside of yourself. But we will never know because all the texts the Bible was translated from to English have been scrubbed over the centuries until Christianity has become a religion for slaves promoting loyalty to monarchy.

Friedrich Nietzsche had some acute criticisms of Christianity. He said Christianity was born in response to Roman oppression. It took hold in the minds of timid slaves who did not have the courage or strength to take what they really wanted. The slaves could not admit to their own failings. So they clung to a philosophy that made virtue of cowardice. Everything the Christians wanted and wished they had in their lives for fulfillment was considered to be a sin. A position in the world, prestige, good sex, intellectual mastery, personal wealth were too difficult or beyond their reach. The Christian slaves created a hypocritical creed denouncing what they really wanted but were incapable of achieving while praising what they did not want was being virtuous. So in the Christian value system sexlessness turned into 'purity', weakness became "goodness," submission to authority became "obedience," and in Nietzsche's words, "not-being-able-take-revenge" turned into "forgiveness." A Christian slave was too weak to have any personal voice and was only capable of bending a knee to whoever was in authority. We have to balance submission to authority with a healthy self-esteem and confidence in our own inner authority.

If you choose to bend your knee out of fear then less power to you:


Bending a knee to authority is not my natural state. Maybe it's yours. You can choose to have faith in a lesser God out of fear. Your religion's threats of eternal damnation do not scare me one bit. My faith is stronger than your fear! I choose to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who loves me no matter what! Unconditional love means no conditions! My God loves me regardless of any of my Earthly sins or how I practiced, or not practiced, my religion or any other religion. Your God has limitations. Your God needs you to behave a certain way. Your God needs to be worshiped. My God is stronger than yours because my omnipotent God of unconditional love is perfect, whole, and complete without any needs or desires.
So if a parent gives a child instructions, and the child does not listen, you're saying the parent should give the child everything he wants, is that right?
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
What do you think eternal damnation is, even if you don't believe in it? Furthermore, do you believe God has the power over life and death?

God's power does not have limitations.

Eternal damnation is like an irrational number. Irrational numbers are never ending and the digits never repeat the same sequence. Eternal damnation is suffering that occurs in the afterlife that never ends and never repeats in exactly the same way twice. Because if the suffering ever repeated exactly the same way twice, you would be able to get used it.

The idea people will suffer for all eternity is just popular because most people are petty, unforgiving, vengeful, and full of hate for people who have sinned against them. The idea people they hate will suffer for all of eternity is a selfish source of pleasure. What difference does it make if Hitler experiences eternal heavenly bliss. It's not like Hitler is preventing anyone else from experiencing eternal heavenly bliss. Why would anyone think our God of absolute perfection absolute goodness would be petty, unforgiving, and full of hate as to facilitate someone else's revenge?

If you want justice it can only happen hear and now. This is why we have a court system and secular laws. People just don't let people get away with murder and think, "Well, God will take care of it." We are responsible for our own justice. I do not think it comes from God.

I think when we die, we all go into the light and experience God's infinite beauty. In this moment, all time stops and we no longer have conscious thoughts. Everyone is allowed to go into the light. There is nothing stopping anyone from looking into the face of God. Every one is saved no matter what has happened in the short amount of time we have spent on Earth.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
God's power does not have limitations.

Eternal damnation is like an irrational number. Irrational numbers are never ending and the digits never repeat the same sequence. Eternal damnation is suffering that occurs in the afterlife that never ends and never repeats in exactly the same way twice. Because if the suffering ever repeated exactly the same way twice, you would be able to get used it.

The idea people will suffer for all eternity is just popular because most people are petty, unforgiving, vengeful, and full of hate for people who have sinned against them. The idea people they hate will suffer for all of eternity is a selfish source of pleasure. What difference does it make if Hitler experiences eternal heavenly bliss. It's not like Hitler is preventing anyone else from experiencing eternal heavenly bliss. Why would anyone think our God of absolute perfection absolute goodness would be petty, unforgiving, and full of hate as to facilitate someone else's revenge?

If you want justice it can only happen hear and now. This is why we have a court system and secular laws. People just don't let people get away with murder and think, "Well, God will take care of it." We are responsible for our own justice. I do not think it comes from God.

I think when we die, we all go into the light and experience God's infinite beauty. In this moment, all time stops and we no longer have conscious thoughts. Everyone is allowed to go into the light. There is nothing stopping anyone from looking into the face of God. Every one is saved no matter what has happened in the short amount of time we have spent on Earth.
I would not like an existence with no conscious thought. That would be an anomaly, since babies cannot cook, read, or compose music. Things I like. In general we need to be taught and exposed. I find no comfort to think that one day I would obliviously be somehow in the light. That thought never attracted me, before or after I began to read and better understand the Bible. May you have a good night.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
God's power does not have limitations.

Eternal damnation is like an irrational number. Irrational numbers are never ending and the digits never repeat the same sequence. Eternal damnation is suffering that occurs in the afterlife that never ends and never repeats in exactly the same way twice. Because if the suffering ever repeated exactly the same way twice, you would be able to get used it.

The idea people will suffer for all eternity is just popular because most people are petty, unforgiving, vengeful, and full of hate for people who have sinned against them. The idea people they hate will suffer for all of eternity is a selfish source of pleasure. What difference does it make if Hitler experiences eternal heavenly bliss. It's not like Hitler is preventing anyone else from experiencing eternal heavenly bliss. Why would anyone think our God of absolute perfection absolute goodness would be petty, unforgiving, and full of hate as to facilitate someone else's revenge?

If you want justice it can only happen hear and now. This is why we have a court system and secular laws. People just don't let people get away with murder and think, "Well, God will take care of it." We are responsible for our own justice. I do not think it comes from God.

I think when we die, we all go into the light and experience God's infinite beauty. In this moment, all time stops and we no longer have conscious thoughts. Everyone is allowed to go into the light. There is nothing stopping anyone from looking into the face of God. Every one is saved no matter what has happened in the short amount of time we have spent on Earth.
A loving parent gives guidelines and instructions to his children. He does not leave them on their own to figure things out as they are growing up. I'm glad you brought this up. Again good night.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No. I am saying adults are not children.
Oh and before I sign off, I would like to mention that yes, we have a short time to live on this earth right now. But the time is coming that we can live forever in beautiful conditions, with "God's face" figuratively shining on us. Good night again. Pleasure talking with you.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Abraham was not a Jew, but God did have a close relationship with him.

If you say so.

I would also like to know if you think of God as a person. Not a human person, but a person with thoughts and feelings.

"Pseudo Dionysius describes the kataphatic or affirmative way to the divine as the "way of speech": that we can come to some understanding of the Transcendent by attributing all the perfections of the created order to God as its source. In this sense, we can say "God is Love", "God is Beauty", "God is Good". The apophatic or negative way stresses God's absolute transcendence and unknowability in such a way that we cannot say anything about the divine essence because God is so totally beyond being. The dual concept of the immanence and transcendence of God can help us to understand the simultaneous truth of both "ways" to God: at the same time as God is immanent, God is also transcendent. At the same time as God is knowable, God is also unknowable. God cannot be thought of as one or the other only."

Apophatic theology - Wikipedia

God is both immanence and transcendence at the same time. God is both knowable and unknowable at the same time. God is not a person with thoughts and feelings. God is every person, every thought, every feeling, for all time all at once.

As far as behaving according to His will, yes, God has a will

Nobody knows "His will". Anyone pretending to know is delusional. Scripture was written by men and not God. Nobody knows the mind of God. To know the mind of God means YOU ARE GOD. Pretending to be God is the height of human hubris.

This is how I know scripture was written by men:

No. 1:St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people:
“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

No. 3: A command of Moses:
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church:
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)

No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans:
“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out:
“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)

No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son:
‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

And his laws are for our (mankind's) benefits. When we do not observe those laws, we will suffer because...they are laid down for our benefit.
The laws of men are not the laws of God.

Let's be very clear. We know the golden rule is true not because of scripture. We know the golden rule is true from experience. If you cause other people to suffer you will experience a life of suffering in equal proportion. This has nothing to do with scripture. It's more like a natural law of humanity.

Now that we have basic morality out of the way, let's consider all God's laws with regards to obedience to authority. Absolute authority comes from within. If anyone tells you differently they are either trying to sell you something or they are trying to get you to join the power structure of their cult. God did not create the Universe because of a desire to have authority over others for the purpose of obedience. The Universe was created by a sharing of an overflowing abundance of God's energy. If we want to be like God we should be sharing with others and not seeking their obedience. I very much doubt an omnipotent God of unconditional love would not be more egalitarian in nature as opposed to authoritarian.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Apophatic theology - Wikipedia

God is both immanence and transcendence at the same time. God is both knowable and unknowable at the same time. God is not a person with thoughts and feelings. God is every person, every thought, every feeling, for all time all at once.

And you know and believe this how? Because you figured it out--or because you agree with the above explanation? Or because someone or something or yourself told you?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
If you say so.



"Pseudo Dionysius describes the kataphatic or affirmative way to the divine as the "way of speech": that we can come to some understanding of the Transcendent by attributing all the perfections of the created order to God as its source. In this sense, we can say "God is Love", "God is Beauty", "God is Good". The apophatic or negative way stresses God's absolute transcendence and unknowability in such a way that we cannot say anything about the divine essence because God is so totally beyond being. The dual concept of the immanence and transcendence of God can help us to understand the simultaneous truth of both "ways" to God: at the same time as God is immanent, God is also transcendent. At the same time as God is knowable, God is also unknowable. God cannot be thought of as one or the other only."

Apophatic theology - Wikipedia

God is both immanence and transcendence at the same time. God is both knowable and unknowable at the same time. God is not a person with thoughts and feelings. God is every person, every thought, every feeling, for all time all at once.



Nobody knows "His will". Anyone pretending to know is delusional. Scripture was written by men and not God. Nobody knows the mind of God. To know the mind of God means YOU ARE GOD. Pretending to be God is the height of human hubris.

This is how I know scripture was written by men:

No. 1:St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people:
“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

No. 3: A command of Moses:
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church:
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)

No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans:
“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out:
“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)

No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son:
‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)



Let's be very clear. We know the golden rule is true not because of scripture. We know the golden rule is true from experience. If you cause other people to suffer you will experience a life of suffering in equal proportion. This has nothing to do with scripture. It's more like a natural law of humanity.

Now that we have basic morality out of the way, let's consider all God's laws with regards to obedience to authority. Absolute authority comes from within. If anyone tells you differently they are either trying to sell you something or they are trying to get you to join the power structure of their cult. God did not create the Universe because of a desire to have authority over others for the purpose of obedience. The Universe was created by a sharing of an overflowing abundance of God's energy. If we want to be like God we should be sharing with others and not seeking their obedience. I very much doubt an omnipotent God of unconditional love would not be more egalitarian in nature as opposed to authoritarian.

Just asking this because you are very firm in saying one suffers in relation to the suffering they've caused others. Do you suffer?
If you say so.



"Pseudo Dionysius describes the kataphatic or affirmative way to the divine as the "way of speech": that we can come to some understanding of the Transcendent by attributing all the perfections of the created order to God as its source. In this sense, we can say "God is Love", "God is Beauty", "God is Good". The apophatic or negative way stresses God's absolute transcendence and unknowability in such a way that we cannot say anything about the divine essence because God is so totally beyond being. The dual concept of the immanence and transcendence of God can help us to understand the simultaneous truth of both "ways" to God: at the same time as God is immanent, God is also transcendent. At the same time as God is knowable, God is also unknowable. God cannot be thought of as one or the other only."

Apophatic theology - Wikipedia

God is both immanence and transcendence at the same time. God is both knowable and unknowable at the same time. God is not a person with thoughts and feelings. God is every person, every thought, every feeling, for all time all at once.



Nobody knows "His will". Anyone pretending to know is delusional. Scripture was written by men and not God. Nobody knows the mind of God. To know the mind of God means YOU ARE GOD. Pretending to be God is the height of human hubris.

This is how I know scripture was written by men:

No. 1:St Paul’s advice about whether women are allowed to teach men in church:
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

No. 2: In this verse, Samuel, one of the early leaders of Israel, orders genocide against a neighbouring people:
“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

No. 3: A command of Moses:
“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

No. 4: The ending of Psalm 137, a psalm which was made into a disco calypso hit by Boney M, is often omitted from readings in church:
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

No. 5: Another blood-curdling tale from the Book of Judges, where an Israelite man is trapped in a house by a hostile crowd, and sends out his concubine to placate them:
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” (Judges 19:25-28)

No. 6: St Paul condemns homosexuality in the opening chapter of the Book of Romans:
“In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

No. 7: In this story from the Book of Judges, an Israelite leader, Jephthah, makes a rash vow to God, which has to be carried out:
“And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord, and said, ‘If you will give the Ammonites into my hand, then whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the Lord’s, to be offered up by me as a burnt-offering.’ Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and there was his daughter coming out to meet him with timbrels and with dancing. She was his only child; he had no son or daughter except her. When he saw her, he tore his clothes, and said, ‘Alas, my daughter! You have brought me very low; you have become the cause of great trouble to me. For I have opened my mouth to the Lord, and I cannot take back my vow.’” (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)

No. 8: The Lord is speaking to Abraham in this story where God commands him to sacrifice his son:
‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ (Genesis 22:2)

No. 9: “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

No. 10: “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)



Let's be very clear. We know the golden rule is true not because of scripture. We know the golden rule is true from experience. If you cause other people to suffer you will experience a life of suffering in equal proportion. This has nothing to do with scripture. It's more like a natural law of humanity.

Now that we have basic morality out of the way, let's consider all God's laws with regards to obedience to authority. Absolute authority comes from within. If anyone tells you differently they are either trying to sell you something or they are trying to get you to join the power structure of their cult. God did not create the Universe because of a desire to have authority over others for the purpose of obedience. The Universe was created by a sharing of an overflowing abundance of God's energy. If we want to be like God we should be sharing with others and not seeking their obedience. I very much doubt an omnipotent God of unconditional love would not be more egalitarian in nature as opposed to authoritarian.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
God's power does not have limitations.

Eternal damnation is like an irrational number. Irrational numbers are never ending and the digits never repeat the same sequence. Eternal damnation is suffering that occurs in the afterlife that never ends and never repeats in exactly the same way twice. Because if the suffering ever repeated exactly the same way twice, you would be able to get used it.

Where did you get that idea? Let's first try to answer that question, and see where it takes you.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Eternal damnation is like an irrational number. Irrational numbers are never ending and the digits never repeat the same sequence. Eternal damnation is suffering that occurs in the afterlife that never ends and never repeats in exactly the same way twice. Because if the suffering ever repeated exactly the same way twice, you would be able to get used it.
Kind of like hitting your fingers with a hammer. If you kept hitting your right index finger all the time you'd get use to it. Whereas if you varied the blows among your other fingers you'd never get use to it. :rolleyes:


.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I've studied many of the World's religions.



I don't think Jewish people or Israelites where special enough for God to talk to them directly. I think it's all made up delusional stuff written by men who were inspired by the desire to have power over people though religious manipulation.
Whether you believe it or not, the BIBLE says that the Israelites descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So if you read the Bible, God did not often speak directly to the Jews except by means of certain ones, usually called prophets. He usually spoke through angels or other means. Their writings and accounts have been preserved. Solomon wrote that man has dominated man to his injury. I'm not going any further with this now, maybe I'll see your answer later.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Kind of like hitting your fingers with a hammer. If you kept hitting your right index finger all the time you'd get use to it. Whereas if you varied the blows among your other fingers you'd never get use to it. :rolleyes:


.
If you're dead, you don't feel anything. You won't feel a hammer hitting your fingers. I guarantee it.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
If you're dead, you don't feel anything. You won't feel a hammer hitting your fingers. I guarantee it.
How can you guarantee it? Did you die and hit yourself with a hammer afterwards, while being video taped in front of a live studio audience?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Well, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the metaphysics of Hell.
Where did you get the idea of the metaphysics of hell. What are the "metaphysics of hell"? I can't agree or disagree if I don't know what ,,, you're talking about.
 
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