An interview with Unitarian Baha'i Bahamut19

[TransmutingSoul]

As I don't believe Abdul-Baha to be an infallible interpreter

This is a topic of great dimensions, where one needs to consider accquired Infallibility.

I wish you all the best in life and faith. I note you did not answer the question about sanctions.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

George,

I suppose the reason the word Baha'i is added is to demonstrate the intention to follow the teachings of Baha'u'llah. I personally would get away from that word because by this point in time, using the word Baha'i is fairly bad branding and marketing. There aren't too many people who have a positive or favorable opinion of the word.

Of course schisms of all kind are condemned in the Baha'i Faith, but Unitarian Baha'is are not part of the Baha'i Faith. Schisms weren't allowed in any faith, but it happened. You follow the Advaita Vedanta path within Hinduism, which believes in monism. There are other paths within Hinduism which believe in duality or other non-monist theology. Does this mean you are creating a schism? Only if you condemn or outwardly try to cause conflict. Unitarian Baha'is will accept any person, even if they are members of the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith as led by the UHJ will not allow Unitarian Baha'is be a part of their faith, and teach those people need to be shunned. Who is causing conflict and a schism? It's not Unitarian Baha'is. I personally have no ill will towards them. I just do not believe Abdul-Baha and leaders/institutions after him were infallible. That in itself shouldn't cause a schism except those leaders decreed any deviation to be heresy.

Well, that gets rid of one of the major criticisms ... the doctrine of infallibility.

 

[bahamut19]

This is a topic of great dimensions, where one needs to consider accquired Infallibility.

I wish you all the best in life and faith. I note you did not answer the question about sanctions.

Regards Tony

You are welcome to share any writing of Baha'u'llah (or any other Manifestation of God) which describes "acquired infallibility." In the Kitab-i-Badi, Baha'u'llah discusses the station of Mirza Yayha. He descrives Yayha as a a governor appointed by the King. Once there is a new King, Yayha must still obey the governor. Wasn't Mirza Yayha appointed by the Bab to lead the Babi community? Why wasn't Mirza Yahya infallible? Didn't Mirza Yahya acquire infallibility from the Bab?

Sanctions? Do you mean whether or not I have been determined to be a Covenant Breaker? First, let me describe a mysterious phenomena among the Baha'i Faith. It seems their is a hierarchy of who is accepted or not accepted.

Tier 1: Those who believe in Baha'u'llah and the infallibility of Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice. This is the best of the best.
Tier 2a: Those who believe in God in some way, but not Baha'u'llah.
Tier 2b: Atheists.... Both Tiers in 2 are called the "Wider Community" and while they are less than Tier 1, all attention must be given to enroll them into Ruhi-based activities.
Tier 3: Those who believe in Baha'u'llah and do not believe in the infallibility of Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice. This tier is basically evil and probably worse than murderers and rapists. They should be shunned because they will poison anyone in Tier 1.

Don't you find it odd that people who believe in Baha'u'llah could be treated worse by Baha'is than a pedophile non-believer? I find it quite odd. The fact we both believe in Baha'u'llah should be a source of unity.

 

[bahamut19]

Correct

As you believe the Vedas to be an ultimate source of truth (the Vedas should be studied by everyone), who would you say authored the Rig Veda, as one example? Would the Rig Veda and its author be considered infallible?

 

[bahamut19]

This is a topic of great dimensions, where one needs to consider accquired Infallibility.

I wish you all the best in life and faith. I note you did not answer the question about sanctions.

Regards Tony

I also note you didn't respond about the Tablet of the Branch. I am not a member of the Baha'i Faith. I withdrew membership several years ago. There were no sanctions upon me.

 

[George-ananda]

As you believe the Vedas to be an ultimate source of truth (the Vedas should be studied by everyone), who would you say authored the Rig Veda, as one example? Would the Rig Veda and its author be considered infallible?

Rig Vedas was authored by the ancient rishis. I guess I don't get hung up on the word 'infallible'. And I learn primarily for modern day teachers who might be fallible but are right on their major points.

Do you hold Baha'u'llah's writings infallible? What about the Bab?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I also note you didn't respond about the Tablet of the Branch. I am not a member of the Baha'i Faith. I withdrew membership several years ago. There were no sanctions upon me.

Thank you for the reply, yes we are always learning, always trying to understand a Message destined to unite all humanity.

My observation would be that it can not happen by individual views, all this must be tabled for all to discuss, thus the power of the Covernant.

Since Shoghi Effendi passing in 1957, All the discussions have led to decisions made by the nearly 100% majority.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I also note you didn't respond about the Tablet of the Branch.

Shoghi Effendi has explained that. Would there be any point discussing it, as you have indicated you do not accept the Will and Testament of Abdul'baha?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are welcome to share any writing of Baha'u'llah (or any other Manifestation of God) which describes "acquired infallibility." In the Kitab-i-Badi, Baha'u'llah discusses the station of Mirza Yayha. He descrives Yayha as a a governor appointed by the King. Once there is a new King, Yayha must still obey the governor. Wasn't Mirza Yayha appointed by the Bab to lead the Babi community? Why wasn't Mirza Yahya infallible? Didn't Mirza Yahya acquire infallibility from the Bab?

His own actions determined his fate.

Baha'u'llah guided him for many years, but the deception of Mirza Yayha had no bounds. The dawnbreakers gives the details of his waywardness. I need not repeat that history that all can read.

The actions and lives of both Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi cemented them in the aquired fallibility of the Covernant. Therein lays the difference.

Regards Tony

 

[bahamut19]

Rig Vedas was authored by the ancient rishis. I guess I don't get hung up on the word 'infallible'. And I learn primarily for modern day teachers who might be fallible but are right on their major points.

Do you hold Baha'u'llah's writings infallible? What about the Bab?

I do for both Baha'u'llah and the Bab.

As I understand what a rishi is, which would be an enlightened individual, it would sound as though a rishi had gone through a journey similar to the Seven Valleys? Correct?

 

[bahamut19]

His own actions determined his fate.

Baha'u'llah guided him for many years, but the deception of Mirza Yayha had no bounds. The dawnbreakers gives the details of his waywardness. I need not repeat that history that all can read.

The actions and lives of both Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi cemented them in the aquired fallibility of the Covernant. Therein lays the difference.

Regards Tony

You are unable to find anything from a Manifestation of God which describes acquired infallibility?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tier 3: Those who believe in Baha'u'llah and do not believe in the infallibility of Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice. This tier is basically evil and probably worse than murderers and rapists. They should be shunned because they will poison anyone in Tier 1.

Don't you find it odd that people who believe in Baha'u'llah could be treated worse by Baha'is than a pedophile non-believer? I find it quite odd. The fact we both believe in Baha'u'llah should be a source of unity.

I see the entire sickness of man is disunity, a separation from God.

This is from the Revelatuin of Baha’u’llah Volume 4 chapter 13.

"....In this Tablet He further explains that if all the peoples of the world were to rise up against the Cause no harm would come to it, rather their opposition would become the cause of its exaltation, but disunity among His loved ones will damage the good name of the Cause, hinder its progress, and inflict untold sufferings and pain upon its Author.
In another Tablet,4 Bahá'u'lláh exhorts His followers to shun any word which might become the cause of disunity, even if such a word is uttered by those who are closest to Him and continually circle the throne of His sovereignty. He describes disunity, in yet another Tablet,5 as a burning fire which ought to be quenched with the waters of wisdom and utterance...."

The Covernant is for Unity.

Regards Tony





Regards Tony

 

[bahamut19]

Shoghi Effendi has explained that. Would there be any point discussing it, as you have indicated you do not accept the Will and Testament of Abdul'baha?

Regards Tony

The Tablet of the Branch is only 14 paragraphs. Since we both believe in Baha'u'llah as being a Manifestation of God, maybe we could study it together.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are unable to find anything from a Manifestation of God which describes acquired infallibility?

That is where the Covernant is important.

I also have the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi that explain the Message of Baha’u’llah.

Regards Tony

 

[bahamut19]

That is where the Covernant is important.

I also have the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi that explain the Message of Baha’u’llah.

Regards Tony

I take it you are rather uninterested in Baha'u'llah unless Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, or a UHJ member like Adib Taherzadeh discussed it. Let me know when you have read the Tablet of the Branch and I will continue discussion with you. Until then, I wish you the best!

 

[bahamut19]

I hope this interview has been informative. There are people who believe in Baha'u'llah but are not part of the Administrative Order of the Baha'i Faith. As you can see, there were constructive comments and questions from non-Baha'is. For members of the Baha'i Faith, all they wanted to discuss is their idea of a Covenant, which is not relevant to Unitarian Baha'i dogma. Despite believing in Baha'u'llah, none wanted to discuss anything which Baha'u'llah had said, but only about what others said about what Baha'u'llah said. Only the Covenant.

The doctrine of the Covenant has slowly withered away the Baha'i Faith and in general, made people less interested in the Bab or Baha'u'llah. It is a shame because no matter your faith background, there is good from their teachings. For anyone who ever is interested in Baha'u'llah, consider the Unitarian Baha'i position. The group headquartered in Haifa are far removed from Baha'u'llah and is a dying organization.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I hope this interview has been informative. There are people who believe in Baha'u'llah but are not part of the Administrative Order of the Baha'i Faith. As you can see, there were constructive comments and questions from non-Baha'is. For members of the Baha'i Faith, all they wanted to discuss is their idea of a Covenant, which is not relevant to Unitarian Baha'i dogma. Despite believing in Baha'u'llah, none wanted to discuss anything which Baha'u'llah had said, but only about what others said about what Baha'u'llah said. Only the Covenant.

The doctrine of the Covenant has slowly withered away the Baha'i Faith and in general, made people less interested in the Bab or Baha'u'llah. It is a shame because no matter your faith background, there is good from their teachings. For anyone who ever is interested in Baha'u'llah, consider the Unitarian Baha'i position. The group headquartered in Haifa are far removed from Baha'u'llah and is a dying organization.

To be fair, I will also give a summary. The Covernant is the stronghold of the Baha'i Faith. To circumvent the given covernant has been the downfall of all past faiths, a downfall that the Covernant of Baha'u'llah was given to prevent.

All the best to you and all. May God's Will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Regards Tony