1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

an honest broker?

Discussion in 'Political Debates' started by Unes, Jun 29, 2006.

  1. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    It is understood well, that the Israelis' are entitle to live in peace.
    What about the Palestinian, aren't they entitled to live in peace?

    What kind of justice is this; when the Israelis have eased the Palestinians' land, are constantly destroying the Palestinians' homes, taken their water resources, constantly shelling them, constantly targeting the Palestinians' leaders in market places with missile attacks which have resulted to death of many children and women, created so many road blocks for the Palestinians that just going to their works or to their farms has become impossible, has taken many Palestinians from their homes to the Israel's Jails without any charges?

    US as the Super Power is supposed to be an honest broker. But US is supplying the Israelis with the best weapons, with many billions of financial aids, and supporting them unconditionally in the International political arena. Gee, are we still confused why Muslims hate US Policies? Do we really need deep thinkers to analyze why US has such a negative reputation in Muslim world? US as the Supper Power is supposed to be the leader of the civilized world, is this really the behavior of an intelligent people which we could be proud of? Oh yes, our President reflects our intelligence: "Israelis have the right to defend themselves." And that intelligence is a skin deep!

    May God Bless us all,
    Unes
     
  2. kevmicsmi

    kevmicsmi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    1,360
    Ratings:
    +180
    Yes, but only if they truly want to. You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink.

    I dont think it is justice, it is self defense.


    Who says? You can not be an honest broker when you do not have 2 sides truly willing for mediation and peace.

    Even conceeding that what you posted is 100% accurate, which it is not, What is wrong with supporting the side you feel most closely resembles your ideals? Israel is America's most supportive ally, and IMO, hopefully no amount of pressure from anyone will ever change that.

    I think most people have a good idea why certain people in the Middle East hate us. But, just because you know why someone hates you doesnt mean its beneficial to try to change those things. Many prisoners hate prison guards because they are being held in captivity, but I dont think that is a good reason to appease the prisoners, and free them. Many Americans hate homosexuals, but I dont think that is a good reason for them to stop fighting politically for their rights.


    yes

    Do they not?

    Please expund on this, im not following:confused:
     
  3. Comet

    Comet Harvey Wallbanger

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,112
    Ratings:
    +424
    What kind of justice is it to sit down at a nice spot in town to have dinner with your family and some idiot with a bomb strapped to himself runs in and blows himself up?

    What kind of justice it it to be walking down the street, kidnapped, and shot in the head?
     
  4. c0da

    c0da Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Messages:
    967
    Ratings:
    +101

    Yes, of course. It works both ways, The Palestinians give the Israelis peace, the Israelis will return it!


    Constantly seems a bit exaggerated


    It says a lot about the Palestinian leaders if they are willing to endanger their innocent compatriots by hiding in such populated areas.


    Possibly a bit draconian, but the threat of lunatics with car bombs makes a country do strange things!


    Are you saying you disagree with that statement? Do the Israelis not have a right to defend themselves?


    Thanks buddy :D
     
  5. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    kevmicsmi,
    First of all, the issue was; if the US is an honest broker in the conflict?
    Do we intend to help to resolve the issue, or we are interested just to help the Israelis to brutalized the indigenous Palestinian people?
    We as proclaimed civilized people, do we have the obligation to be fair and even handed?

    How simple minded one can get?

    Could you please tell us how could it be justified that Israelis bulldozer Palestinians houses and pushed them out of their land and let the land to be occupied by the civilian Israelis' settlers and call that a self defense?

    Israel has taken water resources from the Occupied Territories and used it for themselves, how could you label that as a self defense?

    Creating road blocks in the occupied territory which creates tremendous obstacles for Palestine to do their work or to go to their farms, how could you label that as a self defense?

    I guess you expected that the Palestinian fighters to come into an open field and challenge the Israelis' might!

    Unless your definition of a self defense is; that the Israelis have all the rights to the land and the Palestinians should get lost, because the land was given to the Israelis by God!

    Israelis' complaints regarding the Palestinian resistance is similar to the Nazis' position when they had occupied France during WWII. Then, the Nazis were complaining that French freedom fighters were a menace to their government and they mercilessly were retaliating against the French people.


    Comet, I guess you expected that the Palestinian resistance fighters to bring basket of flowers to the Israelis for all those Israelis' brutalities?

    Comet, let me help you with a case that the Israelis have never given any apologies, and they claimed it was struggle for their independent.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin
    Armed rebellion against the British
    Menachem Begin claimed that the policies of the British were pro-Arab. He issued a call to arms and from 1945-1948 the Irgun launched an all-out armed rebellion, attacking British installations and posts. He planned the bombing of the British administrative and military headquarters (at the luxurious King David Hotel) in Jerusalem that killed 91 people, including many British officers and troops, as well as Arab and Jewish civilians.

    Now, as far as a solution for the conflict, I think if the Israelis be content with 1967 International Border, a lot of other issues would be resolved by a little help from the International community. At the moment the International community is on an impasse themselves! All the countries of the world are accepting the 1967 International Border except Israel, and when the world community tries to do something about that, the US steps in and blocks the measure! It is not clear what is the US policy on the border issue; in one hand US accepts the International border, but when it comes to enforce it she blocks all the measures in that issue!

    I think the Israelis would benefit tremendously from the peace if it happens. They will not have an extra illegal land, but being the only advanced country in the area and having friendly relationship with their neighbors they could excel beyond anybody's imagination. And maybe that is one of the causes which has stopped the issue to be resolved so far after so many negotiations!

    May God Bless us all,
    Unes
     
  6. Comet

    Comet Harvey Wallbanger

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,112
    Ratings:
    +424
     
  7. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    It is true, we have made some mistakes ourselves, but that does not relief us to take responsibility for what happens around us. Especially in this conflict which US heavily has supported the Israelis.

    If we claim to be civilized we have the obligation to use our judgment more carefully:

    How could any civilized person condone any occupier's brutality against the indigenous people?

    Any civilized person would understand this point very clearly.
    This is a Universally accepted concept for the civilized people.

    The civilian indigenous people are the main victims in this conflict.

    Noam Chomsky, who is a Jewish scholar, condemned the occupation without any reservation.
    This is no brainier, if you understand what I mean!

    May God Bless us all,
    Unes
     
  8. kevmicsmi

    kevmicsmi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    1,360
    Ratings:
    +180
    Great questions, give me a few and I will respond:)
     
  9. kevmicsmi

    kevmicsmi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    1,360
    Ratings:
    +180

    yes, honest and just.

    We intend to help resolve the issue to a just and right conclusion, not a conclusion of appeasment, fear, and international peer pressure.

    Fair yes, even handed no. I had a great basketball coach tell me once....."Kevin, as a coach you do not treat each player equally, rather you treat each fairly".....I agree with my old coach.
    Well I figure, whatever I do, try to be the best :bonk: !!!!!!

    Because Israel is tire of getting explosives lobbed at them from those areas. Hiding behind women and children is, IMO, cowardly: However, my opinion does not matter. The Israelis can best defend their country by dealing with such problems in a pragmatic way instead of worrying if their enemies actions are cowardly or not, or what their detractors will say post mortem.

    No, I dont expect it, however if the palestinians want "honest brokerage" from the US, they might want to either try that, or completely commit to peace.

    Honestly, it is slightly insulting to hear you even theorize such.

    This is outrageous. Although, it would make a great topic in a new thread:)
     
  10. Comet

    Comet Harvey Wallbanger

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,112
    Ratings:
    +424
    :) I guess Americans aren't civilized people by this definition then.
     
  11. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    kevmicsmi, who talked about fear, and international peer pressure?
    I suggested to be an effective broker for peace we need to be an honest broker, and even handed. You mention: "yes, honest and just." also "Fair yes, even handed no."
    Can't you see the contradiction in your position?
    How can a biased broker be fair to both side?
    If we are favoring one side, then how could we be "honest and just" for both side?
    As an intellectual you need to think what you are saying!

    kevmicsmi, the whole world, including US have accepted the pre 67 war border. Isn't it right that US doesn't block the measure which leads to that kind of settlement? It is very deceptive to accept the international border in one hand and give full support and encouragement to the Israelis to violet that pledge. An honest broker would behave better than that!

    kevmicsmi, why is this outrageous to you? Every elements of the comparison is right on the money.
    Maybe the reason the comparison sounds outrageous to you, because you never thought of the Israelis as the occupier. But this is exactly the term which the Israelis themselves are using; they are referring to the West Bank as the occupied territory.

    May God Bless us all,
    Unes
     
  12. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    Comet, what is it, now that you are forced to see your own ignorance you would like to distort the issue and are appealing for sympathy from the others!?

    Comet, let me spell out for you: "No civilized person would condone the brutality of the occupiers against the indigenous people."
    All civilized people accept this statement as one of the Universal Truth. If you or anybody else reject such statement he simply is on the opposite side of the civilized people.

    Comet, there are many Americans like yourself who have been fooled by the Israelis' propaganda machine. But there are many Americans who can see the deception very clearly beyond such distortion.

    Actually, Dr. Shlomo Ben-Ami, Israel's Ex-Foreign Minister, wrote a book entitled: "Scars of War, Wounds of Peace" He is acknowledging the damage which the war has caused for both sides, and he is trying to look outside of the box to resolve the conflict.

    May God Bless us all,
    Unes
     
  13. Comet

    Comet Harvey Wallbanger

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,112
    Ratings:
    +424
     
  14. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    14,599
    Ratings:
    +1,793
    In the future, if anyone sees any insulting posts, please remember our good ol' friend the report button.
     
  15. Comet

    Comet Harvey Wallbanger

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,112
    Ratings:
    +424
    Thanks for the reminder to all. I will be happy to use it if I am insulted. ;)
     
  16. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    Comet, I read all your posts very carefully. No, I did not miss any of your fair minded comments regarding the conflict. As I acknowledged before US government herself might be guilty of some misguided adventures right now, which many Americans demonstrated "Not in our name". But your comment: "What kind of justice is it to sit down at a nice spot in town to have dinner with your family and some idiot with a bomb strapped to himself runs in and blows himself up?" which you made was totally simple minded, and I interpreted it as your rejection against the trust of my argument which was appealing as a civilized people we are needed to have a fair minded approach toward the resolution of the conflict, rather than supporting heavily the actions of the Israelis government. Even some Israelis citizens are rejecting the Jewish Religious Fanatics for grabbing land from the occupied territory.

    Here, I need to mention the meaning of "civilized people" has changed throughout the history. What was the norm for the "civilized people" in sixteen - nineteen century has totally changed today. But we still are trying to mend and remedy some of the gross treatments which the settlers did against the Indians.

    As you might have sensed I do not wish any ill-faded feelings toward the state of Israel herself, I wish this conflict to be resolved soon, that all the people of the region to benefit from the fruits of the peace and the cooperation. This conflict stupidly is causing great harm in the region, and US as the main supporter of the Israel are also paying heavily for that distance conflict. At this point I see not accepting the International border is the main obstacle on the road to peace, and I wish that could be handled with some proper peaceful persuasion. I can see few billion dollars of genuine development projects from the International community in the West Bank could patch up the differences in the deal. At present time just the financial cost of the conflict each year far exceed of those figures.

    However, I might be very naive in my suggestion for peace, but I know for fact giving the unconditional support for the Israelis and those Jewish Religious Fanatics are not taking the region to any lasting peace. Supporting the Jewish Religious Fanatics to build more settlements is just prolonging the hardship for the region.

    May God Bless us all,
    Unes
     
  17. Comet

    Comet Harvey Wallbanger

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,112
    Ratings:
    +424
     
  18. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    Comet, I am in agreement with all those points without any reservations.

    Here, I need to remind you as the Super Power of the world, we are involved in most conflicts of the world. We are policing the world because of our own self interest. So if in the Middle East or anywhere else we are asked to be a MEDIATOR or not we are in that position regardless. As we pride ourselves to be "civilized people", we have to conduct ourselves accordingly. This situation forces us to be an honest broker, otherwise we are advertising our own hypocrite ideology. If our credibility in the world means anything and we are trying to promote democracy, then we have to live by our own civilized standard. If we are trying to win the "war on terror" then we better act according to the International Laws ourselves, otherwise we are instigating the lawlessness by our own reckless behaviors. After all, we helped to design those International Laws ourselves! If those International Laws were no good, then why we designed them at first place?

    The support for our friends is a must, but we should not encourage or support our friends for reckless and illegal conducts. Most of the money for those illegal West Bank Settlement developments have been donated by various Americans' groups. We should stop our friends when they are out of line. Unconditional support is not in the interest of anybody, and that is when we are getting dragged into a situation which are so damaging for our long term goals.

    May God Bless us all,
    Unes
     
  19. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    It is a known fact that Muslim Fanatics hated USA so much, and that is why they attacked USA in 911. This is a factual statement which everybody unanimously agrees with.

    Now, we have to explore what were the reasons that these Muslim Fanatics hated USA so much?
    There were few grievances, but the main grievance against the USA in all Muslim countries was and still is; that the crisis in Palestine is all USA's fault; because of the USA unconditional support for the Israelis. Just this issue arises the most hatred emotions against the USA in all Muslim countries. Now, because of this view in the Muslim countries it is reasonable to conclude the problems in the Occupied Territories was the main component which triggered the 911 attack.

    As I mentioned before we do have obligation to help our friends, and State of Israel is our friend. We also have the obligation to stop our friends if they get engaged in some reckless or illegal activities. That is good for their interest and it is for our own good. Unfortunately in the case of building those Illegal Settlements in the Occupied Territories most of the money was provided by the various Americans' groups who loved Israel and they were Fanatic about Israel. Some of the evangelical groups support Israel because of their own proclaimed prophecies of the Battle of Armageddon. It is amazing how easily some people could get manipulated like this! The Jewish and Evangelical groups have huge influences on the US politics and US media. They were the main force who designed and promoted the US policy in Palestine.

    Now it is fair to conclude the financial and political help of the American pro Israelis groups for the Illegal Settlements in the Occupied Territories, inadvertently might have been the main cause for the 911 attacked. This is extremely hard for us to face this ugly truth. And this is the ugly truth which the pro Israelis groups would like to hide it from the fair minded Americans by all means. After all for the 911 attack it is much easier to be blamed on an outside enemy, than playing the blaming game amongst ourselves.

    I do believe if the Israelis' occupation of the Gaza and the West Bank had ended after the peace treaty with Egypt, probably there would have been no 911 attack in USA.

    May God Bless us all,
    Unes
     
  20. Unes

    Unes Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2005
    Messages:
    321
    Ratings:
    +26
    The truth is coming out. The world is becoming more civilized, even some Israelis' citizens are speaking out. Dr. Shlomo Ben-Ami, Israel's Ex-Foreign Minister, wrote a book entitled: "Scars of War, Wounds of Peace" He is acknowledging the damage which the war has caused for both sides, and he is trying to look outside of the box to resolve the conflict.

    We, as Americans, are obligated FIRST to look for the interest and the welfare of the United States, rather than supporting an ill-fated adventure of some fanatic religion groups. The West Bank settlements are the main cause of the continuation of the crisis in Palestine, which is undermining our own security. We can not be this limited not understanding this issue which is dominated our International policies. The Americans should be relieved from the burdens which those illegal settlements are causing us. We unnecessarily have been suffering from those religious fanatic adventures. Why our government should be interested and supported the ill-fated Evangelic prophesy of the Battle of Armageddon? We are living under a constitution which separates the influences of religions from the government's policies. If we really love America, we should fully support and strengthen the US Constitution, and stop these fanatic groups from causing us so much problems. The success of our "war on terror" demands us to be an honest broker in any conflict. In this issue our Americans' ideals and our integrity is on the line. Today is 4th of July which should remind us what we, as civilized people, do stand for. We can not sit passively and let our collective power to be abused and manipulated like this. I, myself, am a foreign born American. When I took my oath of citizenship, I did it with full understanding of the US constitution. I respect and honor the Constitution and I do my best to preserve it.

    Because of the powerful pro Israelis groups which have dominated and controlled the US political landscape, my effort in this thread might be totally in vain, but my conscious is clear that at least I did a little bit to shade some light on the crisis in Palestine, and how the US support for those illegal Settlements has compromised our own Constitution.

    May God Bless us all,
    Unes
     
Loading...